See Mukhta Mai Conquer "Shame"

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See Mukhta Mai Conquer "Shame"

(from brinkzine.com 5/29/07)

• Mohammed Naqvi
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• Mukhtar Mai

MUKHTAR MAI's transition from obedient, uneducated, anonymous young Pakistani woman into an internationally renowned spokesperson for victimized women is so incredulous that Hollywood hasn't touched her story. Instead, acclaimed, socially-conscious Pakistani filmmaker Mohammed Naqvi (who is now 27) spent years following Mai with his camera and the result is the must-see documentary "Shame," which was showcased at the Tribeca Film Festival and makes its television debut on Showtime Thursday, May 31.  At a time there is increased outrage about the "honor" killings of young women in the Muslim world, make it a point to see this story of an innocent woman who was gang-raped because her younger brother had supposedly had been sneaking around with a girl from a richer family.
The rape of Mukhtar Mai by four members of the offended family took place in June 2002 on the orders of council of tribal elders in the remote village of Meerwala, Tehsil Jattoi, Pakistan in Southern Punjab.  Instead of killing herself as expected for the "shame" of being raped, she went to a neighboring town and raised an outcry to bring the four men to justice. The media picked up on the story and she became a cause célèbre, first in Pakistan, and then around the world.  While her case against the jailed men is still pending, she has used compensation money to build the first schools in Meerwala.  Dedicating herself to reduce illiteracy and give power and awareness to women, she founded the Mukhtar Mai Women Welfare Organization in 2003.  While the head of the organization, Naseem Akhtar, looked on, Lise Stevens (of Offscreen andTimessquare.com) and I had the rare privilege of speaking to Mukhtar Mai and Mohammed Naqvi at the Tribeca Film Festival.  The genial Naqvi served as our translator when we asked questions of the lovely Mai, who was patient, cheerful, and extremely soft-spoken.  You will notice that her answers below are brief, but please note that her actual responses seemed twice as long as what Naqvi translated back to us. 

Q:  Your village was so poor that it didn't have a school, much less a place to show movies.  Had you ever seen a documentary before "Shame?"

Mukhtar Mai: Yes, but only over the last four or five years.

Q: Did you have a goal in mind when you agreed to make the movie with Mohammed?

MM: I'm confident that at least the women who see it will be encouraged to speak out is something similar happens to them. I am hopeful.

Q: Has your story inspired other women to protest when it has happened to them?

MM: Absolutely.  Other women have gone to the police. 

Q: Mohammed, how did "Shame" come about?

Mohammed Naqvi: I was working on a documentary called "Terror's Children" for the Discovery Channel here in New York.  For that I returned to Pakistan, where I'm from. I had no idea I was going to go make a documentary about Mukhtar Mia.  At the time I was just interested in meeting her because she was such a big story.  There were many people who came to meet her--journalists and media from all over the world, including several filmmakers.  When I visited her, it was her dream to open a school where she could educate the next generation of boys and girls.  For someone who isn't educated to have the foresight and desire to do that was amazing to me.  There are very few people who can take the very worst of a situation and turn it into the opposite of that.  At the risk of sounding like a cliché, I was really inspired by her and the work she was doing and I called her the next day about making a film.

DP: Did you plan to make the movie about what already had happened or did you expect it to be about what would happen in her life over the next few years?

MN: I had no preconceived notion of whether it would or wouldn't be about only what had happened.  But pretty early on I felt that I wanted to concentrate on moving forward, what was happening as I followed her story.

Q:  When making the film, were you with her the entire time or were you on other projects?

MN:  I was on other projects, too, but I would come basically for three or four weeks, or a month, at least twice a year, and also at key moments over the last several years.  I went to her village specifically but also to big cities like Karachi, wherever she was.

Q: Mukhtar, were you surprised that your story wasn't just about yourrself and that people everywhere cared about it?

MM: I am still surprised to this day and can't fathom it.  I must have been blessed by God to be that one soul that so many people all over the world love.  I am in shock. 

Q: Mohammed, this question has to do with the rape itself.  Does she think she was raped because that higher-class neighbor family had some misguided sense of honor, or does she think was she raped just because they simply wanted to do it? 

MN: I'd feel really uncomfortable asking her that, so can you please rephrase your question?

Q: What about the concept that rape around the world has been used as a means to destroy families?

MN: Oh, I see what you're saying.  You're looking at it from a really Western context, and I know that's not what it is.  I'll explain what I think it is and I'll answer your question then if you don't mind.  Basically, if you look at the mechanisms of the tribal councils of villages in the Southern Punjab of Pakistan, you will see that there are three ways to resolve conflict: land, money, and women.  I say women as they're used as conflict resolution mechanisms between two clans. (Meerwala is a very informal, a rural backwater town and what happens between families who don't get along is very much like the Hatfields and McCoys.)  When I say women are used, they're not usually used as it was in this case.  Typically a woman from the offending Family A will get married to a male from Family B, and a woman from Family B will marry a male from Family A.  You see what I'm saying?  In that way, you will have a relationship between the two families and since you have a relationship the conflict is watered down. In this case, Mukhtar was supposed to get married to Family A to resolve what happened between her brother and their sister, but Family A didn't accept her because her family, Family B, was lower class.  So what they did to her instead of agreeing to the marriage was an aberration to this whole system that people respect.  It was truly heinous. 

Q: It seems that the family of the girl who had the romance with Mukhtar's brother, of which four would rape Mukhtar for what her brother did, would have punished the girl as well. But in the film when the girl gives testimony on their behalf, she seems fine. So why did nothing happen to her?

MN: The fact is the family's story was fabricated after the fact.  They made up an entire defense story, including what she was saying.

Q: At one point in 2005, the high court's decision to punish the four rapists was overturned because of a lack of evidence.  But weren't there a lot of villagers who witnessed the rape who could testify for Mukhtar?

MN: That's correct. There were witnesses, but they were scared to step forward.  Mukhtar had fears herself.  She worried about her family if she spoke out. 

Q: Mukhtar, what about fear for herself?

MM: I was very upset and thought about killing myself, as was expected of me because of my shame.  But I felt that if I was going to die anyway from committing suicide, then I might as well die fighting.

Q: Did you ever think of finding a way to get retribution without spending years dealing with the courts?

MM: No, I don't believe in taking the law into my own hands.

Q: In the movie, we see Glamour magazine holding a star-studded ceremony for you, naming you the "Bravest Woman in the World."  What was your reaction to this?

MM (laughing): I had no idea what Glamour was but it was nice of them.

Q: Mohammed, at a public screening at the Tribeca Festival, you called Mukhtar one of your heroes.  Did your admiration of her as a hero change into other aspects as you made the movie because you had insight into her that we don't have?

MN: What insight I did have was to see that she's essentially a very ordinary woman.  I think those make the best of heroes as it is-just ordinary people who have extraordinary responsibilities.  I think what I learned is that she's not only a hero herself, but she really truly does bring out the best in everyone else, including myself--I'd like to think so. I'm just astounded by how much work they have to do every single day, with all these women from all over Pakistan and all over the world coming to them for counseling at their crisis center.  They have these twenty-hour days.  That's true of both Mukhtar and Naseem, who you can see in the movie as the head of the Mukhtar Mai Women's Welfare Organization.  (We're actually here in America to gain support from the New York State Department and Congress in D.C. when they have meetings next week.)  There's a school for boys now, a school for girls, a woman's crisis center, which is grossly understaffed, and they're almost done with a hospital.   But what they're doin is such a massive undertaking  and, I repeat, it's literally just two or three people, and everyone else around them helps. 

Q: Mukhtar, one of the great scenes in the movies is of the press conference, where the female government official is cheerfully saying that that it was for your own good that you were being watched around the clock and denied freedom to leave the country to speak about your case.  And there you were sitting next to her and contradicting everything she said.  Did you understand why people watching the film laugh?

MM (laughing): Yes, I knew why they laughed!

Q: What is it like for you to see your father speak near the end of the film about how proud he is of your being so courageous, and saying no one has a daughter like you?

MM: I never really knew he said or thought all these things until I saw it in the film yesterday.  I was really happy and proud because it was after so many years that I actually brought him to say that.  I was very moved. 

Q:  At the end of the film, the mother of the neighboring family is still so angry. Are there other individuals and families in the village that feel that way or is everyone else pleased with the changes to the town that you brought about, including the schools and the women's crisis center?

MM: There are absolutely some people who don't like me, especially from other families.  That's like with anyone--some people like you and some don't.  But I have to say there are a lot more supporters now than ever before. 

Q: Do you think that through educating girls that this will happen less, where men feel free to take this kind of punishment on women for the transitions of family members?

MM: Absolutely, but it's just as important to educate the boys.  Only through that can both genders really respect each other and love each other.  And that's what my hope is for the next generation.

Q: Do you see it getting better?

MM: Yes.

Q: At the end of the film you were in the fifth grade at your girls school.  Today you're playing hooky, but where are you now in your education?

MM (laughing): I'm still in the fifth grade.  It's been a slow process because I have to travel everywhere.

MN: In addition to the travel, she has to maintain the NGO and manage all the schools.  But in late May she goes back to take the primary school exams-like the GDE equivalent but for primary school before you go to middle school-so she has those exams.  She thinks she'll fail, but hopefully she'll pass--we'll see. 

MM: Education is so important.  It's important for every woman and I'm no exception to that.

Q: Having grown up in that isolated town, is travel intimidating to you?

MM: No, I'm not intimidated or daunted by travel or anything I experience, but I get tired while traveling, so I don't like to do too much of it.   Also, I prefer staying in my house to hotel rooms. 

Q: Mohammed, how long did you work on the film and when did you know it was time to stop?

MN:  I followed her for four or five years. I knew when to stop because when I visited her in Meerwala for the last time, in March 2006.  When I began on the film her really big mission or goal in life was to get justice and revenge.  She is still determined to put her attackers behind bars, where they are now, and get a ruling in her favor in the case that is still pending in the Supreme Court.  But that agenda, while it still exists in her, was slowly replaced by her desire to educate the next generation of boys and girls, and her work at her women's crisis center. It became basically larger than her, you know?  It became about taking something so bad and awful and turning it into the very best.  That to me was the end because the story that we had wanted to tell was now two stories.

Q: Now that your film is over and you've been together so many years, are you going to have a hard time pulling away?

MN:  Oh, definitely.  I'm still sort of involved in their projects.  And I make it a point to go to Meerwala at least once a year when I to back to Karachi, which is where my family is.  I'll make a point of visiting her and seeing the school.  After working with Mukhtar to the extent that I have, I think it would be really selfish or opportunistic of me to just drop the ball. I don't think I could do that.

Q: Talk about your film being shown on Showtime.

MN: It comes on Showtime on May 31, in North America.  After that we hope to be showing in territories in Europe and Asia, normal distribution platforms.  What I'm most excited about is that it comes out in Pakistan in December. It will be on GEO television, which is our big 24-hour news channel. 

Q: What is the one main reaction you want for the film?

MN: I think people will see that "Shame" is a very simple, universal story about an underdog who really overcomes and makes things possible.  But if there's any reaction I want, and I hope I'm not overreaching here, it's that the film do what Mukhtar continues to do.  If it somehow inspires women or victims to speak out rather than remain silent than I've more than done my job.  I'd be so happy.

Q: Muhktar, what if people see the movie and are moved to ask, "What can I do to help you?"

MM: If people support me by seeing the movie, that's enough of a human bond to help me continue what I'm doing in my fight for justice and education. I thank them for that.

Q: The title of the movie is "Shame."  You say you are still haunted by what happened, but considering your upbringing do you ever feel shame?

MM: Absolutely not.  I feel no shame.

Track Down "Rid of Me" Before It Vanishes

Playing in Theaters

Track Down "Rid of Me" Before It Vanishes

 (from brinkzine.com 8/3/11)

One of the films I anticipated most at the recent Tribeca Film Festival was Rid of Me, a black comedy by James Westby. The Oregonian writer-director had made two of the quirkiest low-budget films of the last few years, Film Geek and The Auteur, which played at Tribeca a couple of years back, and I was curious about his new film that was being promoted as "Mean Girls for adults." While his earlier films were overt celebrations of the cinema--like Tarantino, Westby worked in a video store and saw almost every film ever made--his new work pays homage to films he loves yet ends up being an original. Westby has a kinship with unsocial misfits and in Rid of Me he introduces his first heroine, mousy Meris (Katie O'Grady, the film's producer and Westby's girlfriend). She's happily married to Mitch (John Keyser) but when they return to his hometown in Oregon, she is made to feel like an outcast by Mitch's socially-connected old gang. Too meek to put up a strong protest, she watches helplessly as Mitch leaves her for his old flame and the marriage crumbles. On her own now and with no self-worth, she takes a job in a candy store and enters the town's punk scene. After hitting rock bottom, she starts to find her way. The movie was a crowd favorite at the festival and I was among those captivated by Meris and her battle to regain her dignity. I was also intrigued by Westby's tenderness toward her despite subjecting her to the devastating embarrassments that threaten all people without social skills. I also loved O'Grady's brave, all-out performance. In fact when I first saw her after the film, I couldn't believe that Meris had been played by such a vivacious actress. After the screening, Australian critic Mark Juddery and I met Westby and O'Grady for a quick dinner and conducted this free-wheeling interview.
Danny Peary: What's it like being at the 10th anniversary of the festival?
Katie O'Grady: It's an experience we will never forget. I know the festival will grow into an even more exciting opportunity for filmmakers but for the 10th year it felt like summer camp where we got to be with a group of people that genuinely love film. The festival has figured out that perfect balance of celebrating the art of filmmaking, the business of helping set up films for the marketplace, and having a great time! I think people often associate the festival with Robert DeNiro but for us it was this wonderful collective of inspiring volunteers and staff that made sure every detail of the festival was taken care of. We could not be more honored to be part of the celebration of film.
DP: Are you seeing films?
KO: We are. I saw The Bully Project.
DP: I know you're doing a film about bullying yourselves. Is it also a documentary?
James Westby: That's Katie's baby. She hired me to sort of write it. It is very loosely scripted. She's friends with this bully expert and his interview is so amazing and it formed the spine for what was originally shot as a narrative piece. We're just going to combine the two elements.
KO: It's definitely different from The Bully Project in that it's going to be more of a helpful tool for parents, for churches, for classrooms, on how to help. It gives really practical advice about how to get out of a situation and how parents can help their kids when the schools won't. It'll be following a narrative that we shot with some teens in Portland, Oregon, for two days. They did a beautiful job and I feel like we got some amazing stuff.
JW: It'll be a shorter film.
KO: More about cyber-bullying and hopefully more of an educational, family piece.
DP: Obviously, that film is coming from the same people who just made Rid Of Me. I think Rid of Me could have been extremely painful if you went all the way to the serious dark side. Is it coming from the same place for you guys?
JW: Somewhat, I think, because the character in Rid of Me is in her own way bullied. But I had written that years ago, and we developed it as a feature film and themes arose that were implicit in the script. But the idea of bullying, for me, just came to light when it started being in the news, and Katie decided to make a film that actually spoke to teenagers.
KO: Which I think partly happened because I was remembering what it felt like to be an outsider. Nobody should feel that way.
JW: Until I now, I didn't really associate the two films at all. Or not too much. The narrative film that weve already starting shooting is totally different from Rid of Me. And this third film were doing is like a screwball comedy from the 1940s.
DP: But the follow-up is that you have affinity for, a love for, characters who have trouble in social situations. Those are like kids who are bullied.
KO: The social anxiety part is something James deals with specifically in his own life.

So I think that definitely informs his writing sometimes, as the person who's outside looking in. And I think that maybe that isn't always all it's cracked up to be. Film Geek was another tale of a total outsider never really fitting in.
DP: It's somewhat autobiographical, right?
JW: In that I worked in retail environments for so long. Specifically video stores. It was one of those pictures where you exorcize your film-geek demons.
KO: Rid of Me is also autobiographical.
JW: That's true, that's very true.
Mark Juddery: Thats interesting, it did remind me of another film from Australia, Muriel's Wedding--have you ever seen that?
KO: Oh, I love Muriel's Wedding.
JW: I've never seen that, and I love Toni Collette, I've seen all of her other movies.
MJ: Muriel's Wedding doesn't have that much in common with Rid of Me, but it is about an young woman that doesn't fit in. And the other intriguing thing is that it was written and directed by a guy, P.J. Hogan. Rid of Me seems to me like a women's film, too, but it was written and directed by you. So what does that say about women's films? Is there less of a difference between the genders than you might think?
JW: I feel comfortable with this movie because it was made completely on my own terms, and it's something that I wrote quite a while ago, about seven years. Since I wrote it, I made films with male protagonists. As far as the inception, that's about it, but then Katie became a part of it. We shot Rid of Me about a year and a half ago, and Katie was cast in the part and the films that I've started writing since then--there've been two that are almost done--are what you'd call women's pictures as well.
DP: From your point of view, does James have a feminine sensibility?
KO: From my point of view, he's about 60% female.
JW: Not biologically!
KO: He's got a very, very incredible way of voicing things that I have felt from a female perspective but haven't been able to put words to myself. It's great for me as an actress to get to work with those words. Because then I just have to fill in the blanks in-between, and I'm able to create a whole life, a full character. When I first read the script, I remember thinking, "How does he know? How does he know?" I don't think he really knows how he knows!
JW: Well, I grew up pretty close to my mother and my sister, and I was married twice before. I dont know if that means anything. And I have two daughters. And all my pets are female.
KO: But you also don't really see gender the way most people do. When James looks at somebody, he doesn't see black/white or female/male. He just sees a person. I don't think he sets out to write from a female perspective. He just sets out to write from his own perspective, and it just happens to be female. And I think that's the difference between how he writes and how other directors write.
JW: But again, during the production of this film, I was surrounded by these actresses in the scene in the candy store where Meris works and that feminine stuff happening around me got absorbed, and I was inspired me to continue writing in the direction. That part of me is coming out a lot more now, since making this film. I was comfortable being with the actresses, who become really good friends--especially the ones in the candy store.
DP: When you write females being mean as opposed to men being mean, where's the difference?
JW: I'm sure it's informed by my past relationships. I know it is. With movies, there's always a movie part, and then there's a reality part. A lot of the choices I make have a lot to do with my freakish obsession with films in general, and movies that have been made in the past, and movies that are being made now that I really love and watch over and over. But I dont know, as far as the writing goes, if there's any difference in writing a male or female being mean. Originally, the idea was just to make Meris's husband's old best friends evil white people. In the early shots, I always kept her as separated from everybody else as possible. I think that was probably the only Filmmaking 101 thing that I articulated in my head. I would have everybody in these wide shots and her in a single shot and to constantly cut back and forth. That was pretty consistent.
DP: You mentioned at the screening that they were meant to be like Stepford Wives people, or monsters.
MJ: That first half of the film was quite incredible, I thought.
JW: Some people almost walk out during the first half, but the second half they love.
MJ: I don't know what your stage directions were in the script, but there's not much there to suggest that they're being horrible yet.
KO: It's underplayed.
DP: But Meris recognizes the subtle venom Mitch's friends direct toward her.
KO: I think one of the reasons that people giggle uncomfortably is that they relate to what she experiences. She's been traveling for days, worried about meeting her husband's friends, wanting to impress them and suddenly they are there without any time for her to prepare. Girls in silk, and gorgeous--we could have just ended the scene. From a womans perspective, that would have been enough.
MJ: The movie's very first scene is quite interesting, because Meris does something quite hideous.
KO: How does this quiet sweet housewife go from cooking Eggs Benedict to doing something that I've never even heard of a woman doing to another woman?
JW: It was based on a story I heard.
KO: You're kidding!
JW: I heard about it from a friend I worked with at the video store.
KO: That sounds like a friend of a friend of a friend, I don't know if it's true.
JW: It's fun to start with something like that, and then to have to earn trust from the audience for the protagonist or at the very least to earn respect for her. It's so funny to watch the movie with an audience. You guys were at the last screening, which was very somber compared to the other two, which were at night. When Meris throws the ashtray at the woman's head, there was a lot of applause and cheering. By then they are fully on her side. It was weird to have reached that point. Meris's pathetic attempt at karaoke might have helped her earn cheers.
MJ: Katie, you basically play three characters in this movie, the way I see it, because Meris evolves. But you said you don't think she's anything at all like you at any of those stages?
KO: What I meant was that she doesn't look like me and she doesn't present herself like I do. But I certainly felt the way she feels during a period of my life. I was definitely experiencing the wrong way. That's what I think is happening to Meris.
DP: Where are Meris and Mitch when they are happy at the beginning?
JW: Orange County.
DP: But Orange County is more conservative than Portland.
JW: That's just autobiographical stuff. I lived in Irvine for a time, and the dynamic of my going back and forth between Los Angeles and Portland, making that drive, informed the story. We definitely came up with a back story for Meris. She was probably raised by her grandmother, because her parents are never mentioned. Fun things like that. Katie's like Gena Rowlands in that she takes a part and makes it her own. .
DP: Katie, talk a little bit about knowing your character. I'd think you'd play scenes without stopping every time to explain to James why Meris does what she does.
KO: We never had to do that. From the minute that we started working on this project, we were in sync.

We were in sync on the character, and made the exact same choices. Once he had idea, I'd be like, "That's exactly what I was thinking." Or vice versa. There was definitely a wonderful chemistry between us, and a reason for that, I think, was because I based my character on him. He was my really good, best friend at the time. We've become boyfriend and girlfriend since working on the film together for so long. But to me it was really clear that Meris is a person I know. I was definitely able to make the role mine. She goes through what I go through, because you cant completely remove yourself from this person.. The process of doing research and all that was almost unnecessary in this situation, because I just knew her.
JW: That was one of the virtues of my deciding to shoot the movie myself. I started out using actual film, but HD and hi-res format video has basically allowed me to become the filmmaker that I want to be. I tried out all sorts of things, that wouldn't have been nearly as effective with film--it wouldnt have been the movie that it is now.
DP: Katie, at the Q&A after our screening, you said that you never knew if James was doing a close-up or a long shot. Would you ever think, "Boy, I hope he's doing a close-up right now?"
KO: No. It was a really cool thing for me as an actor, with Meris, because I totally was gone. Just gone. Disappeared. There was no thought. James didnt exist. I didnt even memorize my lines, I just knew them. I don't know what happened, it was just a really cool, wonderful experience.
DP: Organic, as they say.
KO: Yeah. And also because I produced it, I worked on every small tiny thrilling aspect, short of the writing, I did everything. Until we brought in a sound person, it was really just the two of us doing all the work, and I just understood every location, everything. I was involved in it all.
DP: At the end of filming each day, did you revert to yourself? Was it easy to go back and forth?
KO: Oh, yeah. I'm not like Daniel Day Lewis or Christian Bale. I admire them, but I really dont work that way at all. It would literally be producing in-between takes--"you need to get these wine bottles back over here, and the curtains are showing"--and James would say 'Action!' and I was Meris again. It was so much work because it was, again, just the two of us. I'd produce for five days and then I'd have Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday shoots. And I would have to get there hours before everybody to prepare the location, and stay hours after to clean the location, so I was mopping floors at 4 a.m. in homes that we borrowed. But it didn't matter. I just felt so strongly about this character. It was the first time I'd ever really felt that something needed to be said. I just didnt want to leave the earth as an actor and not have said something that I really felt in my heart, which this character says. Meris has the personality of so many people out there.
MJ: What's your acting training?
KO: I haven't been acting that long, actually. I was in broadcast communications for a while. And so I actually did a little but of what you guys do. I would go interview people at junkets for movies; I'd watch the movies, and sit down and talk with the talent on camera. But at one point I was talking to Jennifer Lopez, after watching her movie Maid in Manhattan, and I remember thinking, "Oh my god, she's doing what I want to be doing. I could be doing that. Why am I asking her about her stupid engagement ring from Ben Affleck? I dont care." So I quit. I studied with an acting coach, Laurel Smith, who trained with Sanford Meisner in New York. So I just got lucky. That was seven years ago, and I started working. I'm mixed-method, for sure. Meisner is listening and answering, but method is certainly something I add to it. A hodge-podge mixture.
DP: And improv?
KO: Uh, huh. Part of it is just understanding your character so well that you keep going. And when you're working with James, he doesn't call cut. You have a long time because he just keeps going.
JW: That's actually one of the drawbacks of working with HD. Just the fact that getting an image is now the cheapest thing for the low-budget independent filmmaker.
MJ: How did you fund this film?
JW: Katie raised all the money. Just privately.
DP: Did you show people his old films? How did you get people to contribute?
KO: It was I think mostly though my work. And he has the great reputation for doing interesting films. At the time, he wasnt going to give me the part. I didn't look like Meris was supposed to look..
DP: What's the pivotal thing about her?
KO: I definitely was going through something at the time that I felt was in some way unjust and unfair, and I felt that I wasn't being seen for who I am. And neither is Meris. But the fault was my own, and the fault is her own. She isn't seeing herself clearly either. And if you don't see yourself clearly and get a hold of it, nobody else will have a clue of what to do with you. So it meant a lot to me, it changed my whole life, the film did.
JW: It is weird, or odd, or telling or something,

that Meris was kind of a combination of myself and my two ex-wives, reinterpreted by Katie, who is now my girlfriend--I don't know what any of that means.
MJ: It seems like a tragedy for Mitch. I felt sorry for him, because he obviously tried to leave his group before but now he's back and has been manipulated by his friends and now is as much of a jerk as them.
KO: At the beginning to the middle of his arc, he's trying to help her along. But he gradually shifts to the other side.
JW: What you said about Mitch's tragedy. I see it all the time--people get married and they really don't want to get married. They were kind of a pseudo-happy couple at the beginning, but I kind of based that on the idea of two people who wake up and...
KO: This is what you do: let's get married.
JW: Because I myself did that exactly same thing.
DP: So are you saying Mitch married her just to get married, or are you saying Meris married Mitch because he was good at the time?
JW: He's away from his friends in California, he has a good-looking secretary...
KO: Who worships him.
JW: It's really easy to fall into those traps of quick security.
DP: You don't think he saw something in her?
JW: I do, absolutely. It actually comes out more in the film than in the script; we have that brief, expository moment in the film, that opening when they're in the hotel room, talking. That's intercut with them getting on the road and showing up at that house. I think you get some intimations of real tenderness there. I kind of picture their past life being nice and sweet for what it is.
MJ: Until his final couple of scenes, you see that he still cares for her. Until the end when he just loses it.
KO: His new wife isn't going to allow that.
MJ: I know she's only in two scenes, but how did you get Theresa Russell to play the mother of Meris's rival?
KO: James wouldn't say it, but she loves his work. We called her agent and said, "Here's what were doing. Here's the part, it's not that big, she deserves better, but..."
JW: "Here's the budget, it's not that big."
KO: "But we want you to come to Portland. And we'll bring you and your boyfriend to Portland and you can have a nice weekend."'
MJ: You already knew that she liked his work?
KO: When I talked to her agent, yeah. And they had heard from the lead singer of Everclear, from his agent, and they were on board. They were like, let's do it. From there it was just the matter of a small negotiation process, and she loved it. We actually have stayed friends--we had dinner at her place.
MJ: She plays evil women quite a lot.
KO: She's so good at it. I love Black Widow.
JW: She has no problem talking to you for hours about her ex-husband, Nicolas Roeg. That was fun.
KO: Tell your funny story about Theresa on set
JW: Every time I would move the camera to a new setup, she'd ask me if I was going to change lenses. And I only had the one lens. So I was like, "Not just yet." I had to lie to her. "Soon." We had no lights anywhere. Remember Roeg started out a cinematographer.
KO: She didnt give us a bad time about it at all. She was lovely. I couldn't believe how young she looks. She must do Pilates or something.
JW: Strangely, talking to her about Roeg's films and the films theyd done together influenced me to not be scared about using the zoom lens. Kubrick and Richard Lester and Roeg and all those great filmmakers from the '60s and '70s embraced the zoom. Something about talking to her about the way those films were shot started influencing me as an amateur cinematographer. I'm glad that we talked or I might not be here right now.
MJ: On the subject of influences, Katie, who are yours as an actor?
KO: There are so many. Jessica Lange, Katharine Hepburn, Shelley Duvall. There's a real truth to those women--especially Jessica Lange. Oh, god, she's just got the guts in her. And she's pretty, but she can play parts where that doesnt matter. All goes away.
DP: When watching your movie, I was thinking of the women played by Duvall and Sissy Spacek in Altman's Three Women.
KO: I can see that. We love that movie!
MJ: None of the actresses you mention really strike me as chameleons, but you do, just from this one film. Just seeing you now, and also seeing the three faces of Meris.
KO: Sissy Spacek is another one I've always watched and admired. She can play whoever she wants. And Cate Blanchett is a huge influence, especially in I'm Not There. She crosses over and becomes whoever she wants. And Johnny Depp. I dont feel like I have as much freedom as Johnny Depp, at this point in my career. I think he just fucks with people, just to see if he can get away with it. I'm not there yet.
JW: But all those actors make really good choices, too.
DP: In the film, you look a little like Sally Hawkins.
KO: Oh, thank you! I have a lot of influences, definitely. It's so hard to pick if theyre male or female. I grew up watching Sally Field. Daniel Craig, I love his work. He's great. Like James was telling you,

our next film is a screwball comedy and I've studied Katharine Hepburn forever. My hair is platinum blonde.
JW: And it's a formal, exact movie. It's five twenty-minute takes, pretty much. It looks like a Douglas Sirk or a Vincente Minnelli but I would say dialogue-wise, it's like His Girl Friday and My Man Godfrey. Actually, the DVD of that was a really big influence on the idea. Because behind the scenes, on that Criterion disk, William Powell and Carol Lombard curse at each other in the outtakes. The idea of seeing these icons, in these outtakes, making that film--seeing how they really talk to each other--influenced me..
KO: On Rosemary's Baby was an influence on us.
JW: That's one of my favorite films ever. The best director.
DP: Where are the similarities?
KO: The tone. The absurd characters.
JW: Going over the top with the characters.
KO: And her feeling like, something's not right here, and everyone saying, "Yes it is, everything's fine. It's you, you're going crazy." And that awesome innocence that Mia Farrow has--yet she tries to start taking charge of what's happening.
JW: And by the time Meris throws that ashtray at the woman's head, there's a lot of dreaminess implicit in the film, as in Polanski. There are all sorts of little fantasy elements where she spaces out and imagines things, like she's having a successful dinner party.
DP: The idea of breaking up with somebody, then you keep running into them with their new person--that was in Film Geek, too. Is that based on anything?
JW: Well, it's a small town, it's pretty inevitable that will happen in these little tiny places. I'm from little towns and you see everybody all the time. Also, in the way of a good play, you have to get these people together to create conflict. So a lot of it, in the writing, is mathematical, even.
DP: Is the record store owner who likes Meris also based on you?
JW: No, he's actually based on the guy who plays him.
KO: That's just him, he's not an actor. That's his favorite record shop, too.
JW: He was our director of sound.
KO: He'd never acted a day in his life.
DP: He's obviously a better match for Meris than Mitch, so it's good they meet. Also, in regard to her future, Meris says she wants to open a restaurant, but you never bring it up again.
KO: I believe she goes on to do something like that. I believe she does. We fought about that a little bit. I said, "Can we just show her cooking in a restaurant over the credits?" And he's like, "No! No Hollywood ending!"