Daryl and Zoe on Lola

Lola Versus is Playing in Theaters

Daryl and Zoe on Lola

(from brinkzine.com 6/14/12)

Zoe Lister-Jones and Daryl Wein

Mainstream critics have praised the first-rate cast in Daryl Wein's Lola Versus, which opened nationally last week, but I'm disappointed that several have accused the film of being trite and conventional. I'd love for those critics to try to list those films that it copies because they'd be hard-pressed. A lot of care went into making this perceptive comedy about a twenty-nine year-old, Lola (the always unconventional Greta Gerwig), whose life unravels after long-time boyfriend Luke (Joel Kinnaman) dumps her before their wedding, original--and it was done so subtly (almost line for line and scene for scene) that lazy critics didn't bother to notice. True, Wein and his life partner and cowriter Zoe Lister-Jones' second feature, following the acclaimed $15,000 indie Breaking Upwards, didn't venture into jaw-breaking extremes--for the simple reason they wanted to base it in reality--but the dialogue, characters, locations, cinematography, relationships, and even the way Gerwig and Lister-Jones (who matches the indie star as Lola's acerbic best friend Alice) move within the frame are not common to contemporary movies. Last week, I posted a four-journalist roundtable I was in with Gerwig (http://brinkzine.com/content/10999/.html). As promised, here are roundtables I participated in with Wein and Lister-Jones (a personal favorite whom I interviewed for Stuck Between Stations last year) on the same day. There's a profile of the couple in today's New York Times--it's mostly about them (and is worth checking out), this is mostly about their new movie. I note my questions.
Roundtable with Daryl Wein
Danny Peary: Why isnt there a third word in the title?
Daryl Wein: Zoe and I were lying at bed at two in the morning trying to come up with the perfect title. One of us said, Lola Versus... and we tried to think what the other word should be and we realized in that pregnant pause that it might be more interesting to leave the title open-ended because Lola's up against so much in the film. We thought that was a little more unconventional to let the audience fill in the blanks. Also we were exploring what it is like for Lola to be a PHd student studying the verses of silence in poetry, so in another incantation we actually spelled it with an es, and it was The Lola Verses. Then we decided that would be too confusing, and that people could just think of that subconsciously. So that was the inspiration for the title. Also: Lola being Lolitaesque, in that there is a young naivete to her, was part of the reason we gave her that name.
Q: Lola's about to turn thirty and people set themselves up with weird challenges because of this number.
DW: There's all this societal pressure that comes with these age milestones. At thirty, everyone expects you to have your life figured out. You want to at least be close to settling down with a steady job and a family. The anticipation of what you're supposed to do is in conflict with how you're socially conditioned to think and believe. When the rug is pulled out from under Lola, that's what makes, proverbially, the shit hit the fan even harder.
DP: But she learns there is no need for urgency.
DW: Absolutely. It's not about this desperate need to find that perfect person right away and have that plan so well mapped out. You can take the time to figure out who you are and what you want and get to a comfortable happy place before you're bringing others into your mess.
Q: Zoe just kills as Lola's best friend Alice.
DW: Zoe is hilarious. She's a brilliant comedian. She has sharp comic timing and also a vulnerable, dramatic side, too, which had a good showcase in our last film, Breaking Upwards. She's good at playing both. Zoe makes what could have been a really schticky sitcom thing into something grounded, authentic, and truly funny.
DP: Does Zoe write all her own lines?
DW: No, we write everything together. We have a healthy combination.
DP: Is it easy for you to write her?
DW: It is because I know her so well. We've actually been dating for eight years and I'm well-versed in the female experience.
DP: Because you've known each other so long I thought you might have a pattern where she writes the females and you write the males.
DW: It's funny, but we don't. It's pretty traditional in that whoever is feeling more excited or passionate about characters or part of a story jumps in with the writing and later offers up their notes or rewrites to the other person. It's gender equal. We don't write in the same room. We write separately and then show it to the other. If we sat in the same room and tried to craft sentences, we'd drive each other crazy. It would be like a painter trying to paint with someone next to them.
Q: Since you've been dating Zoe for eight years, was there any awkwardness when writing the breakup scenes?
DP: That was your whole first movie...
DW: Yeah, luckily we got that out of our system with Breaking Upwards. That was a very therapeutic process to go through. This one was less autobiographical so it was easier for us to write it and not be so worried that we might be offending the other person in our interpretation of what our real relationship is like. This one was more born out of our being friends with so many smart, funny, interesting women in the New York dating world--and Zoe's experience of being a single woman when we were in an open relationship.

Zoe  Lister-Jones and Greta Gerwig

They were having all these weird encounters with men and weren't able to find something that worked. That inspired us. It's rare to see funny, authentic single women post-breakup that aren't Sex and the City or Bridget Jones's Diary or any movie starring Julia Roberts or Katherine Heigl. It's rare when the woman make mistakes and isn't always charming and constantly the victim. Sometimes Lola crosses boundaries and alienates people.
Q: Lola isnt forgiven just because she's cute.
DW: Right. Often she's not cute. She's messy and raw--that spoke to us more than her being an always pretty and charismatic leading lady. You rarely see women in movies being unapologetic in a raw, genuine way. Sometimes people criticize women characters for speaking so candidly. They're not used to seeing women talking about their vaginas. We're used to men talking about their penises and pee-pee and poo-poo humor, and we only started seeing women do it in Bridesmaids, but there it was in a broad context. We tried to ground our humor in a reality we can identify with. We were trying to challenge the expectations of what a female protagonist tends to be, not only by casting Greta Gerwig but also in the way we wrote Lola's trajectory. She is ping-ponging back and forth in a way that doesnt take her from A to B, where at B she meets the next guy and they fall in love and have everything wrapped up with a bow at the end.
DP: What is harder or more fun for you two to write: characters who are breaking up or characters who are getting together?
DW: I think were always drawn to characters and alternative forms of relationships that we don't typically see. So it doesn't necessarily have to be them getting together or breaking up as long as it feels fresh and hasn't been written about to death. At the time of Breaking Upwards, we were seeing what it was like to be in an open relationship and having the nitty-gritty rules of being together but seeing other people. So we were trying to craft a couple who is together but is strategizing a breakup--they're not just breaking up but are actively creating rules. In many breakup films you see both sides but in Lola Versus we are seeing it solely from the female perspective.
DP: If you had made this film Luke Versus would you have been more sympathetic toward Luke? He seems to get out of the marriage because hes overwhelmed but otherwise he seems like an okay guy.
DW: When we were writing this we didn't want to portray him as the asshole villain, which he could have been. We wanted to show that it was more complicated than that. He goes through complex emotions surrounding the breakup. We dont show the breakup scene, but you can imagine what he says. In the conversations he has with Lola subsequently, we realize there were all kinds of factors that played into why they aren't together. They've been together for eight years, there was all this pressure around getting married, and maybe they weren't still exciting each other.
SPOILER ALERT
DP: I think what I'm asking is: If the film had been Luke Versus and we saw things from his perspective and got to know him fully, would we think that Lola should get back with him?
DW: In my opinion, and it's open to interpretation, I dont think they were ever truly right for each other. We imagine them to be the kind of couple that gets together in college --they fell for each other when they were too young--and thinks they are the ones for each other, and they stay together for a long time out of fear of leaving each other or because they're in denial about what's really missing between them. I think that ultimately Luke isn't fulfilling her, and visa versa. They are both looking for different things. Obviously, we're mostly focusing on Lola's pathology in this. If it was Luke Versus, I think we would have understood his pathology even more, post-breakup. And I think you'd see that he doesn't want to be with Lola anymore. He has been craving being with other women and having new experiences.
DP: At their age, everyone who wants to break up and let the other person down easy lies, "It's not you, it's me," although it is them. Then they add, "I need to be alone so I can go off and find myself." It's a cliche that is usually also a lie but in Lola's case it is a cliche that is true. She does need to be alone to find herself.
DW: Well, you're always rooting for the guy to get back with the girl and the girl to get back with the guy. You rarely see a movie where the woman ends up alone with herself by choice. There is an expectation that there will be a happy ending where she'll run off with the guy. But for us it was more important to root for Lola to figure out herself. It takes Lola months to figure things out and that she can say no to Luke. When the other person holds the power and broke up with you and they're happy and you can't stop thinking about them and wanting to get them back, you're in a vulnerable position. Lola goes through so many trials and tribulations but has to hit rock bottom to realize that's not the direction she should be going in.
END SPOILER ALERT
Q: Why didnt you have the breakup scene?
DW: We wrote it and shot it and then realized we'd seen breakup scenes so often and it was more interesting to tell the story without it. You get what's happening and it's more fun to catch up to what went awry. We knew that because of the film's marketing and trailer, people would already know they break up. It's more interesting having them on the happy track to getting married and buying the flowers and then boom there's a 180-degree flip. The rug is pulled out--that's how it happens sometimes. It was more important for us to get into the story of this woman spiraling after the breakup then it was to focus on why they were breaking up. The story for us starts post-romance.
Q: Talk about Lola's parents and casting Debra Winger and Bill Pullman.
DW: Lola's parents are supposed to be these New York hippie intellectuals who led an unconventional life in the seventies. Lola might have lived a more out-of-control life when she was a kid, and she rebelled by having an in-control planned-out life. When I was casting I was looking for actors who could fit perfectly into this world, and I cast great actors with amazingly long careers. You dont really see Debra Winger in comedies like this of late--the last movie we saw her in was Rachel Getting Married and she played a really dramatic role. It is interesting seeing her in a lighter, poignant, motherly role. She's smart, cool, and unconventional and that made her perfect for Lola's mom. Bill Pullman is such a sweet, kooky father. He has an offbeat quality and I'm always attracted to that, like Hamish Linklater playing Henry and Ebon Moss-Bachrach playing the one-night-stand guy, Nick "the Dick." There's something more unexpected about them than actors who tend to be polished.
DP: Did An Unmarried Woman flash through your mind while making your movie?
DW: We watched Paul Mazursky's film after we started writing our movie. It was an inspiration because it has such an interesting tone and the ending is so ambiguous and open-ended, with Jill Clayburg walking through SoHo carrying a large painting. That was a film that we referenced a lot while developing the project because we couldn't think of any other post-breakup story that follows a single woman in an honest way. Still to this day I cant think of any film with that trajectory. We were inspired by Jill Clayburg's performance, which was so powerful and compelling. Like Lola, her character is unapologetic, raw, vulnerable, and messy.
Q: Talk about the New York you shoot in this film.
DW: We moved around the city, trying to show different pockets. We used twice as many locations as are usually used in independent film. We shot in Vinegar Hill, Dumbo, the High Line, the East Village, Tribeca, even Times Square, so we were jumping around everywhere. There were homages to classic locations of New York, but there were also fresh, interesting places like Russ & Daughters smoked fish shop--it has been around for a hundred years but we were the first crew to shoot there.
Q: You seemed to take a lot of care with the cinematography.

Daryl Wein.  Photo by DP

DW: I think that almost all romantic relationship movies are shot very broadly. I haven't seen attention paid to the way they have been shot since Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. And that was shot by the incredible Ellen Kuras eight years ago! I wanted the way we shot this film to be more interesting than what you typically see and that's why I hired the amazing Swedish DP, Jacob Ihre, to give us more of a European art house aesthetic. He shot this great Norwegian film, Reprise, and I knew that the way he mixed styles would match the trajectory of what Lola goes through as a single woman in an interesting way, rather than just shooting everything conventionally. That's why we mixed hand-held with blocked off and tracking shots. We used all kinds of techniques to achieve the overall look. We also shot on film, which is rare, and worked really hard to get the budget to work for film. You see so many filmmakers shooting video because they can't afford film--or they dont care about the aesthetic. But I believe there is heart and soul in film.
Roundtable with Zoe Lister-Jones
Danny Peary: When I interviewed you before, I pointed out that you like doing scenes walking down streets. That's apparent again in this movie when many scenes have Lola and Alice walking outdoors in New York. You're the best at it!
Zoe Lister Jones (laughing): Walking and talking is fun! Wearing high heels on cobblestone streets in New York City makes walking and talking more difficult, but it adds to the challenge!
DP: We talked about the pacing, how you have to walk slowly but make it seem natural.
ZL-J: That's totally true so you can hit your marks at the correct time during the dialogue. It's all pretty technical. But it's fun in New York especially because there's so much to look at while you're talking. So many New Yorkers do walk and talk, including on their cell phones. New Yorkers are always talking. There's almost no silence.
DP: And Lola almost gets killed talking on her phone while crossing the street.
Q: In the Times Square scene you don't do any walking.
ZL-J: I know. There was just a skeletal crew on that. Daryl and two others followed Greta and Hamish and got to capture the madness of Times Square on film.
DP: I assumed that you wrote all your own zingers but Daryl says he writes some of them, too.
ZL-J: Yeah! We really switch off a lot. He writes dialogue for men and women and I write it for the men, too. It's not a gender-based process. Whenever I write a scene I'll pass it to him and he'll make notes or do some rewrites, and it's the same when he writes a scene, so at the end it's kind of an intricate melding of both of our voices. People ask us if he wrote something or I wrote something and neither of us can remember who wrote it.
Q: When you write about a female character do you think that you're going to play her?
ZL-J: No. Our last film Breaking Upwards was loosely based on the open relationship that Daryl and I were in, so we played versions of ourselves. But at first we didn't want to do that. We wanted Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Zooey Deschanel to be in it. And then 500 Days of Summer came out with them in it and we were like, "That's sooo weird." I think we're always trying to get recognizable actors because that allows our film to be viewed by a larger audience. Because we're just starting out, that's always our goal. When Lola Versus began we thought it was going to be a micro-budget indie like Breaking Upwards and I'd play Lola. But the script got such a great response that it was made by Fox Searchlight, which was so exciting. When Fox Searchlight came on board and it was going to be a legitimate production, Greta Gerwig seemed like an exciting fit for Lola and I stepped into the character of Alice. We don't really write for actors in particular. We just write characters who are interesting and funny to us and then have a casting process.
DP: Did Greta Gerwig audition?
ZL-J: No, she didn't read lines. We sent her the script and had a meeting with her and we hung out one night at the premier of her film No Strings Attached. We had a lot of fun. Then we had her read opposite other actors when we were casting around her. That was the first time we got to see her really put the part on its feet.
Q: You had a lot of funny lines directed at Greta but you couldn't knock her off her game.
ZL-J: Yeah, she's really present in a scene, and really works off what is given to her moment to moment. She listens. It's exciting working opposite her because she never plans anything, so [laughing] from take to take it can change pretty dramatically. That's great in the editing room because there are a lot of options for which way scenes can go.
DP: Do you change from take to take, too?
ZL-J: I do. I think I always have a bit of a director's head as well. Especially when I write a scene, I have a pretty good idea what I want it to look like. I don't change things dramatically, but I change little things. Especially for comedy, there are things you can change to help the comic effect and give it variety. But I don't think I go from zero to one hundred from take to take. Greta can change more dramatically--she gives herself a lot of room to play.
DP: Was it a fun or challenging dynamic working with someone like that?
ZL-J: It was always fun. Because I'm also one of the filmmakers, while acting opposite of Greta I was also crafting it and seeing how things were fitting into the story. So it was always interesting to see her take on things. She has a very specific rhythm as an actress and a unique energy that she brought to her character and helped bring Lola to life in unexpected ways.
Gerwig and Lister-Jones

Q: Talk about the theme of silence in your movie.
ZL-J: We wanted to deal with noise, particularly in a woman's head. I can only speak as a woman and don't know what the noise is in a man's head. A woman's head can get, figuratively, noisy. There's so much about self-image and relationships and a lot of self-analysis and a lot of self-loathing. And we wanted to capture that through Lola's fantasies and her dissertation--because her journey is to ultimately find a sense of peace. She is her own worst enemy in that journey. It's hard for her to apply the silence that she's studying in her thesis to her life--it takes time before she can make some of those connections and find a little bit of silence.
DP: Alice says to Lola that she has no friends but for her and Henry. I think that's significant in the movie. I asked Greta if Lola is a good friend, and she said, yes but not for that year.
ZL-J (laughing): I think she was a good friend. But what happens when you're in a long-term relationship is that your friendships really shift. When you're not in a relationship, your friends are your main priority, and when you're in a relationship your priority becomes your partner. That is a difficult transition and there can be jealousy and competition until you adjust to what your new role is in that person's life. So Lola has been with Luke for eight years. Alice is her best friend but Lola is ultimately a homebody who has found a routine with her long-term boyfriend so it's not about going out and partying and going to the bars where the cute guys are. That's more Alice's M.O. I think Lola has had been a good friend while with Luke but I think Alice is selfishly excited when Lola's single again so she can get her wing-woman back.
Q: In their case, opposites attract.
JL-J: Well, I think that's kind of true in friendships. Obviously there are shared interests among all those in Lola's social circle. They're fashionable, into music, intelligent, and have a sense of humor. But I do think that people are drawn to people who have different energies than their own a lot of the time. I think that's what makes the social dynamic interesting. In the film, everyone has a different rhythm but (laughing) "they make beautiful music together."
DP: Lola blames herself for her downward spiral and alienating Alice and Henry, but I told her that I also blame Luke, Alice, and Henry for letting her down. What do you think?
JL-J: Yeah, but I don't think it's black and white. I think throughout the film we were trying to not have all of those conflicts have a very clear villain or victim. Even in Lola's relationship with Luke, we never wanted to make him a villain. We wanted his trajectory to also be thoughtful and sensitive. He did something he had to do that hurt Lola but he isn't a total asshole. I think Lola is victimized but she also alienates herself from the people still around her during this year. When people are going through moments of crisis, especially breakups at that age, they can be pretty self-absorbed. So, yeah, there are definitely shades of gray in who's to blame.
SPOILER ALERTDP: Should Alice have gotten together with Henry?
JL-L: I don't want the audience to know that happens, but I will say I personally believe that she is allowed to. From the beginning--what makes it so complex--is that we hint that Alice has always been thinking about Henry. Lola has always been pushing Henry on Alice and telling her to date him; and Alice says that he does look cute and Henry says Alice looks pretty. Then when Lola drops the bomb that she made out with Henry, it's quite devastating to Alice because she had a glimmer of hope of getting together with him. So I think Lola and Alice are stepping on each other's toes. I think when you have to confront a close friend with difficult information, you don't always make the best choices. Sometimes you wait a little bit too long.
END SPOILER ALERTQ: There's a naval term for what happens with Lola and Henry after her breakup: "port of convenience."
ZL-J: Interesting! That's a good title for a movie.
DP: Lola and Luke have the same first initials, like Ross and Rachel on Friends and Luke and Laura on General Hospital. Were they the perfect match at one time and just grew apart?
ZL-J: Yeah. They met and college and grew up and are very different people from who they once were. They stayed together because they were on the same track and it's hard for either to jump off the train. They fell in love at a particular moment in their life but after eight years Luke starts to panic about the idea that they have grown into different people. They just haven't taken the time apart to realize who they are because of their codependence. In the back story we imagined that Luke was a total hunk and Lola felt that she scored big time. When you're in college, getting the dreamboat is so exciting! The thrill of that probably didn't wear off that much.
Q: Until thirty came. People don't realize that there's a long life after thirty.
ZL-J: I know. We were in a park and there were all these high school students who were acting so old--at every age, we feel we're so old, that we know everything and have done everything. Approaching thirty seems like a huge transition but in retrospect it is almost nothing.

Zoe Lister-Jones, photo by DP

Q: There's a funny scene in the movie in which Alice appears in an awful heavy experimental play with her boyfriend. Did you guys actually see a play like that?
ZL-J (laughing): Never like that. We took it to an extreme for comic relief. The most experimental theater Daryl and I saw was when we studied acting at Tisch at NYU. We'd see some black-box insanity. We liked that Alice is an actress because that lends a whole other level of desperation to her character. She can't be fulfilled in her love life or in her career! Everyone who lives in New York especially has seen plays their friends are in that are unwatchable and they have to lie to them afterward. So it's a funny New York moment when Alice comes out of the theater after being in a terrible play and Lola and Henry tell her it was amazing.
Q: What inspired you to write about Lola?
ZL-J: In the year Daryl and I were in an open relationship, my experiences as a single woman were very different from his as a single man. The dating scene for a single woman in her twenties was pretty bleak. All my single girlfriends were experiencing the same comically tragic lifestyle. We'd get together and laugh about it but also share our war stories about the variety of lame dudes we encountered and the guys we liked who would treat us like shit. So we felt it was a ripe story that we could mine a lot of humor and raw emotion from. We hadn't seen an authentic portrait of a single woman on the screen. There are the glamorized versions, like Sex and the City and Bridget Jones's Diary, but there was nothing that felt young or that we could relate to and that shifted between comedy and drama. Lola Versus is sort a call back to Paul Mazursky and Woody Allen in the seventies.
DP: Lola says at one point that to love yourself you have to love other people first. Is that true?
ZL-J: I think so. Often people say that you first have to learn to love yourself but sometimes I think it's the opposite in that self-judgment sometimes follows how judgmental you are of other people. Really appreciating the people who love you is sometimes the one of the hardest things to do--it's really hard to accept love in this day and age--but it creates an environment where you can ultimately love yourself.
Q: Are you interested in only writing scripts from your own ideas?
ZL-J: No, we're interested in working from other material. We like to write our own scripts but it would be exciting to veer from that path and do something really different.
Q: What's your next project?
ZL-J: We wrote another script for Fox Searchlight called Motherfucker.
DP: That title will go over well.
ZL-J (laughing): It will never get through. It's about a young couple and the girl introduces her boyfriend to her parents and he falls in love with her mother. It's an intergenerational romance!

 

Greta Gerwig on Lola Versus

In Theaters

Greta Gerwig on Lola Versus

(from brinkzine.com June 7, 2012)

Greta Gerwig, photo by DP

Only a couple of years ago I had no idea who Greta Gerwig was or that she'd soon be "a star," but, it turns out, I was impressed by the funny, young unknown when she was in Ti West's creepy horror film, House of the Devil--as the lead's best friend, she has a shocking demise!--and the Duplass brothers' cool horror parody, Baghead. I just didn't realize it was the same actress in those art-house and festival favorites and didn't think I'd see her again. But since dazzling critics playing opposite Ben Stiller in Noah Baumbach's Greenberg, Gerwig has became the quirky "It Girl" of indie comic romances and the "Go-To Girl" for some of our wittiest auteurs. Woody Allen's To Rome With Love is on the horizon, but you can already see her in local theaters in Whit Stillman's sophisticated lark, Damsels in Distress, and, now, Daryl Wein's Lola Versus, which opens in New York this Friday. Gerwig is, happily, on screen the whole time as Lola, who is about to marry her long-time boyfriend Luke (Joel Kinnaman) before she turns thirty. But when he calls off the wedding, her orderly life goes out of whack. During her downward spiral, she jeopardizes her friendships with sassy Alice (Zoe Lister Jones, who wrote the film with her life partner Wein) and Henry (Hamish Linklater) and dates Nick (Ebon-Moss Bachrach) an off-putting prison architect with a huge penis. The only people she doesn't have issues with for now are her parents Lenny (Bill Pullman) and Robin (Debra Winger). I'll soon be posting roundtable interviews with Wein and Jones (who also collaborated on the clever Breaking Upwards, about their own temporary breakup and open relationship). Below is a roundtable I participated in with the charming Gerwig (who displays her green fingernails in one of my two photos). I note my questions.
Danny Peary: What do you think the title means? Should there be a third word?
Greta Gerwig: I think the title references the fact that Lola is against everything and feels everything is conspiring against her. It's a fill in the blank title. I like the title, it has always been evocative to me. It is catchy and mysterious.
DP: And would Lola pick that title for herself?
GG: Lola Versus, yeah. It feels like she's in a boxing match.
Q: Her name is Lola and theres reference to the song "Whatever Lola Wants."
GG: That's from Damn Yankees. You cant put one over on me, I'm a musical theater girl. But I always think of the Kinks! There's no connection at all. I don't think Daryl and Zoe really knew their song "Lola Versus Powerman" when they started writing the script. Now they know do.

DP: Well, in the Gwen Verdon song Lola gets whatever she wants, but your Lola doesn't really get anything.
GG: No, she's the opposite. Whatever she wants she doesn't get.
Q: Your character is supposedly a writer. Is there a background story of her writing?
GG: Well, she's a Phd student. She's working as a T.A. and grading papers. What she's writing is the thesis that she's trying to finish. I have a lot of friends who are in graduate school right now and it didn't seem like a fake movie job to me. I found that real. Sometimes in movies they'll have the character work for no reason in, say, a pet store.
DP: Why do you think Lola's dissertation in about silence?
GG: Thematically, it was something that resonated with Daryl and Zoe. They know someone who is getting her PHd, who helped them create this theme for Lola's thesis. It leads you less into the territory of "this crap's all made up" and makes it real. Lola has an overly chatty mind that's always churning and commenting on and criticizing everything. What she's attempting to write about is silence created through art but is then not being mirrored in her life. That silence is what she is looking for.
Zoe Lister Jones and Greta Gerwig

Q: The film makes a big deal of Lola turning thirty.
GG: I haven't turned thirty yet so I dont know what that's like, but since I've lived through it fictionally I will be much more elegant about it when I actually turn thirty.
DP: It seems that she has a sense of urgency about turning thirty but comes to realize that there is no need to feel panicked.
GG: Exactly. I dont think it's a universal anymore that people want to get married by thirty, but when you turn thirty there's still the feeling that this counts! People feel that they should be farther along in their lives and be more established, like owning an apartment or having a good job, or whatever. Thirty is one of those birthdays where you take stock and say, "Where am I? Where did I think I would be?" That's a universal theme.
DP: Did you guys talk it over that since she's turning thirty and is single and lonely she must start desperately dating ridiculous people like Nick?
GG: Yeah, she's frantic because she feels she's running out of time. She's twenty-nine and realizes that the life she expected to happen isn't going to happen anymore. She is frantically trying to fill the void so she can again know what her future will be.
Q: Did it help you to have the writers on the set with you?
GG: I liked having them right there, and it was fun to act with one of the writers as well, Zoe. I write, so I like writers and I like writers who act. Zoe and Daryl are really fun people. They do want the words they write to be said and they have definite ideas they want to get across but I found that helpful rather than restrictive. I find it frustrating when filmmakers don't have a point of view or an idea of how they want things to be played. I find that harder because there are no parameters--I always need parameters!
Q: Lola's relationship with Alice is very interesting.
GG: Zoe is so funny and she wrote this crazy, out-there character and plays it so well. I loved doing the scenes with her. I always love doing scenes with girls; that's the most fun for me. I think it's because I have great girlfriends in life and there's something about those relationships--when they seem real and good--that I love watching. I've played the best friend in movies and those are my favorite scenes.
Q: You have some great reactions and nonreactions to Alice's lines.

Greta Gerwig and Zoe Lister Jones as best friends

GG: I have a friend who's not unlike her. If you spend enough time with someone who says outrageous things you just kind of roll with it. You just accept it.
Q: The scenes in which Lola is with her parents, played by Bill Pullman and Debra Winger, are interesting, too.
DP: Yes. I love those scenes. The ones with her dad are my favorite. They feel very buoyant. Her parents are sort of aging hippies and they see Lola's rebellion as being very conventional--she's going to have a long-term boyfriend and get married to him and she was going to follow a plan. She has a set life that is superconventional in comparison to what her parents experienced. I think a lot of people try to build a life that is different from their parents' life. There's also something about people who grow up in New York City, which Zoe did and can speak to. There's a strange dichotomy where on one hand they are the most sophisticated, erudite people you'll every meet because they grew up in the greatest city in the world and had access to the best art and culture that the world has to offer. But on the other hand if they never left New York, they're like a townie who never left a ten-block radius and maintains a small world--I feel Lola falls under this strange demographic. Going away to college at Bard for four years doesn't mean she's lived in another city. She basically stayed in New York City. I really like that she's a big city girl but there's also a small town element to her because she's never been away.

DP: In the production notes, Zoe talks about how Lola is unapologetic in making mistakes. That sounds like Ben Stiller's Greenberg character. It is one of his less endearing qualities.
GG: Oh, right! He is bad at apologizing.
DP: Your character is bad at it, too. Maybe that's a reason she doesn't have many friends.
GG: She has two good friends, Alice and Henry, but not a lot of other friends. She's not a bad friend but she has just made her world very small. She made her whole world this guy Luke and didn't really expand beyond the two people that they knew, Alice and Henry. It happens in relationships that you become a two-person world. Lola just stopped trying to make friends. I dont think it was because she was a difficult person necessarily--she just didn't put herself into situations in which she wasn't comfortable or any place where she'd actually grow. But she has to do that after the breakup with Luke and that's what the movie is about. Once you have taken away the half of yourself that you were sure was you, what do you do?

Joel Kinnaman and Greta Gerwig

Lola alone

Q: Make mistakes. Usually, women in movies don't make as many mistakes as Lola makes.
GG: One of the things I loved about the script is that Lola isnt a mess in a cute way. She's just a mess. It is hard to always be on her side. She had to really screw up these relationships and really make mistakes, because she has to earn something back. It couldn't be just that she was adorably missing the mark. She had to really do something hurtful, and that's partly what I responded to. It was dynamic and interesting and I didn't feel that I was just a placeholder in a movie for who people think girls are. She has to earn her keep.
DP: So you think she's a good friend?
GG: Yeah, I think that ultimately she is a good friend. Although over the year we're watching her, she's not a good friend. She is a good friend at her core and will be again. She's just having a bad year.
Q: The movie doesn't have typical rom-com cliches. Were there challenges to avoid them?
GG: The script didnt fall into the typical rom-com traps, so there wasn't any need to fight against that. My goal as an actor was just to make it as real and truthful as possible. I let other people worry about whether Lola is likable or pretty.

 The studio did worry that Lola wouldn't be likable and that people would turn on her and not want to watch her make all these mistakes. SPOILER ALERT And how can we be on her side if she doesn't end up with the guy? I really fought to keep it how it was because that's what is special about it. I didn't feel that I'd make the movie only if Lola ends up with a perfect guy. I've already seen that movie a million times and I didnt need to make it. END SPOILER ALERTDP: At one point in the movie, Lola says, "I wish I could say this was somebodys elses fault, but it's me." I dont totally agree with that. Do you?
GG: She didn't choose to be broken up with and she doesnt choose to go through a lot of stuff, but she does perpetuate some poor decision making. I think what she's saying is that she is the only person who is going to make sure she's happy, and she thinks, "I need to figure that out because no one else will. It's a waste of time for me to sit around and blame oteher people for what's happened."
DP: I blame all the other people.
GG: You blame all the other people?

Hamish Linklater and Greta Gerwig
DP: I think Luke, Alice, and Henry all let her down.
GG: Good! Youre on her side! In some ways they do let her down, but if you're an adult when people let you down, you're still responsible for your own life.
Q: How has it been working with independent directors who are working with studios?
GG: I think its great that all these people I knew coming up are doing well. Were all together and broke and making movies or web shows for no money. We were able to make movies our own way. We didn't ever have to compromise so in some ways the visions remained pure. We never had experienced making movies where someone said, Oh, no, you cant do that. We always just did it. It didn't cost anything. In a way it allowed people to hone something very specific without someone watching them and telling them they can't. One of the reasons there is a response from Hollywood to such directors' films is that they feel original, and it doesn't feel like they're making anything in an attempt to please anyone. It all feels genuine and that's what everybody is always looking for. You'll keep making these movies whether anyone watches them or not. That's a powerful thing.
Q: If it's too edgy it might make Hollywood nervous.
GG: I dont think being too edgy is ever a problem. I think the problem is when something is softened too much. While it may become softened or diluted, you never want to approach something like that and put away your weapons. The spikier, the weirder, and the more original will do better even in a system that is more corporate because there is more of an arsenal. If you don't have much of anything to begin with, when they take it away from that you have nothing left but a glob of cliches. So the spikier the better.

DP: You have an image of being unconventional and that's considered a plus today. But going back a couple of years, did you worry that being unconventional was a minus for you?
GG (laughing): Yeah! I was hoping I wouldn't be unconventional. I had this idea that I would somehow become conventional and look like and sound like everyone else and be like everybody else just by virtue of the fact that I was in movies. Then they figured out it's not true. I'm unmoldable! Which is ultimately a good thing! I had no agenda to be different and wanted to fit in very badly but now I think I'm in a very particular moment in film and in the world where people are craving a realness, especially from women. I'm just very lucky to be making films at a time when someone can look at me and say, "Ah, yes, we'll cast her!," as opposed to "Who is this person? She's so weird!"
DP: With directors like Daryl Wein, Whit Stillman, and Woody Allen, do you come to them as a performer or do they say, "This is how she is, let's let her perform"?
GG: I come to them. With all of them but particularly Whit and Woody, I like giving into the directors' world and vision and rhythms. You can't bring Whit to you, you bring yourself to Whit. The language is too complicated and the plot and characters are too arched to bring it down to my level. So I had to figure out how to make myself be like Whit Stillman. I love that, it's the best part. You get to step into these weird worlds that these auteurs create, and that's my favorite thing. That's the kind of cinema I look for. That's why I like acting.
Greta Gerwig displays green nails. Photo by DP

Just So We Know, Rosie Perez Is So Boricua

Find  "Yo Soy Boricua, Pa'que Tu Lo Sepas!" on Video

Just So We Know, Rosie Perez Is So Boricua

(from TimesSquare.com 8/22/06)

Dating back to "Do the Right Thing" and "White Men Can't Jump," Rosie Perez has usually played women who talk fast and furiously and with such wit that the men around them often overlook the intelligence behind their words. Her equally endearing offscreen persona has been similar, with her wisdom being coupled with a strong and visible social consciousness.
And all that is certainly on display in Perez's deeply personal and ambitious documentary, "Yo Soy Boricua, Pa'que Tu Lo Sepas!" Her enlightening exploration of the Puerto Rican experience and often unhappy history both here and on the island, debuts on IFC Monday, June 12, 9 pm ET/10 pm PT, one day after the 2006 National Puerto Rican Day Parade, on Fifth Avenue from 44th to 86th Street. This free-wheeling interview with Rosie Perez took place a few days before both events.Q: At the Tribeca Film Festival, you spoke about how you originally planned to make a narrative film about the systematic sterilization of women in Puerto Rico several decades ago. How did your project eventually evolve into this documentary?
Rosie Perez: I wanted to do a motion picture narrative piece on the sterilization of Puerto Rican women but the people that I went to, kept telling me it wasn't true.
I was like, "What do you mean it isn't true?"
"Well, it didn't happen."
I said, "What do you mean it didn't happen?"
"Well, the women went for sterilization voluntarily."
And I was like, Oh my God, I couldn't believe they were saying this, and I said, "Well, then why were there sterilization clinics placed in factories? Well?"
And their response was, "Uh, uh…" And I said, "If major corporations were placing sterilization clinics in factories, and the factories were hiring mostly women, you don't think that there's something funny about that?"
I pointed out that there was a legislative act, 136, that said sterilization should be practiced on the poor and the malfunctioned, people who are not able to raise children and educate them in a proper manner. That government legislative act passed.
"There's nothing funny about that, is there?"
"Uh, uh…"
I showed them footage of Puerto Rican women who had been sterilized, and them saying "I didn't know what was happening to me. I didn't understand the word 'sterilized.' I thought it could be reversed, and I would try to have children later--but they said I was sterile and couldn't change it. Why didn't they tell me that?"
Or these women would say, "I went in to the hospital to give birth to a child, and after birth, I realized I got sterilized, and I never agreed to it. But then they said I did agree to it. And they said, well you have five kids already, so you should stop anyway." And I said to these people, "Those things did happen."
Nobody wanted to make the movie, and I just couldn't believe it. And so I just kept pressing on and doing other projects, but it was always on the back of my mind. I called my agent and said, "I got it. I'm going to prove it. I'm going to spell it out and I'm going to tell our whole history. I'm going to show how political policy can affect people. And show that with all that we went through, we were still here. And I'm going to wrap it around with people's personal stories."

Q: Were you amazed by how little people know about this period of history and Puerto Rico?
RP: In the documentary I say that when I was a little girl, people would ask, "What are you? What's a Puerto Rican? Where's Puerto Rico?" That was constant. So I wasn't amazed that people didn't know. What I was amazed about is why people didn't know. Even a large number of educated Puerto Rican Americans we interviewed did not know the history. It was like. "We went to Hunter College, and it's not taught there." It's not taught in the schools. So how can anybody know? Unless you take Puerto Rican studies in college, you're not going to know. Not even in Puerto Rico. Well, that's even further insulting, you know.

Q: Did you feel an obligation to make a documentary because you did know certain facts about Puerto Rican history?
RP: I felt an obligation even before I started producing. That was always the secret motivation for me to start producing: I wanted to get behind the scenes so that I could get enough experience, clout, and status to make movies that would speak to the Puerto Rican experience. I felt that in the early nineties. It was really weighing heavily on me and I think that is because I was "discovered."
I never really wanted to be an actress. I was going to college in Los Angeles and wanted to be a marine biologist. I thought I was going to be the female Jacques Cousteau and fight for the environment and stuff like that. The person that I was prior to Spike Lee was always a very socially conscience person. I was always that person. I felt like that part of me was slipping away, with the celebrity and all that stuff and I was like: How can I still stay in this industry, because I love it so much, and still be true to who I am?

Q: Perhaps you were distracted trying to establish your acting career. You've said in the past that after breaking through in "Do the Right Thing," you were typecast and only offered Latina roles.
RP: Yeah, so I didn't do those roles. I told my agent at the time to get me all the Jessica Lange  roles, and she laughed. I said, "If you keep laughing I am going to get me somebody else, for real." Then she got me "White Men Can't Jump." That part was supposed to be for an Irish-American woman.
Then my agent got me "Fearless,"  and that was originally was for an American-Asian woman and then Hollywood changed it to an Italian-American woman. I was the 85th person seen for that part. So I sat in that freaking hotel for three hours watching a parade of white girls going in and out of that room with Peter Weir and it was very intimidating and it was affecting my self-esteem in every possible way, because I'd think, "Oh, she is so cute," or "Oh, she is so skinny."
Everyone thinks I just walk into a room like Jack Nicholson in "Batman," saying "Wait till they get a load of me!" But that wasn't it. I walked in the room and Peter says, "Would you like to sit down?" and I ran into the bathroom and stayed there for 20 minutes. 20 minutes!
Talk about breaking down some freaking doors, you know what I mean.
Anything in life that you really want, you just have to go for it. Sometimes I don't get the credit. I was like, "Wait a minute I didn't do that. I didn't play the maid. I didn't play the prostitute. I didn't play the cracked-out whore. Ok, I did that once."
I struggled and I pushed but I didn't want to do it in a whitewashed way. I wanted to have a different face there and to be honest I just didn't want to champion the rights for just Latin people, but for all people of color, including Asians who are even lower on the totem pole than us. I don't want to keep complaining because I'm not bitter, but let's make changes and let's keep it moving.
Q: You avoid the subject of your acting career in your movie, but from the beginning, did you know you were going to go back and forth from Puerto Rican history and other people's stories to your own?
RP: No, not my personal story. I always knew I was going to go back and forth between history and other people's personal stories. Because I was so touched by those women that were interviewed. I wasn't supposed to tell my personal story because I've always told the press it's off limits. I wanted everyone else to spill their guts, but I didn't want to be in it.Liz Garbus  was my co-director and she and Rory Kennedy were my executive producers, and they ended up pregnant at the beginning of production. I couldn't believe it! And so, I'm going about doing directing and everything, and Rory said we had to get the narration down. I didn't feel like writing it and she goes, "Well, let's put you on tape."
So I would talk and talk and talk. And then I would start crying while I'm talking. Then I would talk and talk and talk, and then cry and talk and then, laugh and then talk. And my family was always around, and Rory called me in her office, and said. Listen, I feel that you need to be a character in the movie."
I said, "Oh hell no, oh, no. You're all hormonal because you're pregnant." But she's like, "If you wanna be a viable director and make this movie something special, you have to let go and just be in it." I think I told her off, but I finally gave in.
Rory and Liz. They were really protective. Liz was very, very respectful because I told her, "I am not ready to tell my whole story and I only want to tell the story that is specific to the documentary, and if anyone tries to push me further we're really going to have a problem."
She said, "I am not here doing an expose on you, and quite honestly, Rosie, those are not the kind of films I make." So it was great to have her there because she totally respected my privacy. And when one of the co-producers was pushing too much, she fired him. So that was great company to be in.

Q: How difficult was it to organize your film?
RP: I always knew how I wanted it. When I interviewed someone like Manny Diaz--he recently passed away, God rest his soul--I said, "Tell me about your childhood." He goes, "Are you doing a documentary on Puerto Rico?" And I said, "Yes, And I want to prove to people that Puerto Ricans have been here forever, despite what the movies have told us all."
And he goes "Okay." And then he would start telling a story and showing pictures and everything. I always knew it was going to be like that. The difficulty was explaining to everyone else how I wanted it to go. But once Liz and I got into the editing room together, it started to go so smoothly, it just started really like taking off. I was just surprised at how it came out much better than it was in my head.

Q: Was it hard to find archival footage to support what you knew happened on the island?
RP: It was really, really difficult and the production team at Moxie Firecracker Films was always calling me and asking, "Are you sure this happened?" And I said "Yes! Keep digging, keep digging, keep digging! I'll dig, too."
I was on the phone with the people at Hunter College and the people at the University of Puerto Rico saying you got to find me something. This wonderful woman named Blanca Velasquez was a professor and I'd drive her crazy with my requests, and she would send me piles of information and we just kept digging.
I wanted to include archival footage of the U.S. military teaching the Puerto Rican soldiers English. One of my relatives who served in WW1, told me he learned English when he enlisted in the army. 'Really?" "Yeah, I wanted to know how to say, 'He's shooting at you!' They taught us." That always stuck with me, so I go, "Let's find the footage on that."
And it was really, really difficult to find and to fact-check was even harder. Like for instance, the Agent Orange testing on Vieques Island. I remember Rory Kennedy  was like "Are you sure that happened?" And I said, "That's what I heard." And she said, "We are not putting that in unless we fact-check it."
Then they found that blow torch footage. But that kind of thing would keep me up at night. I worried that a story wasn't going to make it into the film because we couldn't fact-check it in time. Actually some parts didn't make it into the film because we just didn't have enough time and money to research it further to prove what we knew to be true.


Q: We were you worried about leaving anything out that was important politically or culturally?
RP: Yeah, Liz and I had many arguments in the editing room because there was so much more material that was supposed to go into the documentary than what came out. I kept saying, "We have to put this in and we have to put that in." And she'd say, "If we do that you're going to have a freakin' miniseries." And I said, "Oh let's do that!" She said, "We don't have the money, we have 90 minutes, Rosie. So pick and choose." And that was really hard. But it was great advice. The great thing about not trying to include everything is that it is inspiring other people to research those missing stories or go tell those stories themselves.Q: In the movie, you learn about your own family.
RP: I was discovering people I never met before. And I had thought I was going to tell my family about something that they didn't know. My cousins didn't know, but the other family was like "Oh yeah, we know that story. Your great, great grandfather, yeah, he was all over the island with the women. You probably have more half-brothers and half-sisters and half-cousins than you know about." When I told my family I was doing the documentary and I was coming down to Miami to interview them, they were like, "Oh, cousin so-and-so wants to be in it," and I'm asking, "Who's that?" Even after the documentary, I am still discovering family members. Thank God for the Internet, because I just found out I had a relative who used to fight for women's rights in the 1800's. And a relative who wrote a novel and a relative who was a well respected doctor on the island. I also found out that I have a cousin-in-law who's an actress, Julie Diaz. It's just been an incredible and fantastic journey, and I did not expect it.

Q: In the movie, one of the men you interviewed, your friend, writer/actor/dj Bobbito Garcia, says he was born in New York and learned English first. Do you think people within the Puerto Rican community are discriminated against because they don't speak Spanish?
RP: That definitely still happens. And I think that's just insecurity by Puerto Ricans who are fearful that the culture is slipping away. And what they don't understand is that it's not. I don't think that it's just a Puerto Rican thing. I think it's an American thing. When people immigrate to this country, a lot of parents with misguided intentions want their children to be assimilated so that they can be successful and not have to endure the same pain they endured. And as an adult, when I sat back and looked at it, I was like, "Wow, I guess my mother was really looking out for me. She didn't want me to go through what she did, so she said, 'You're going to speak English.'" When I talk to Puerto Ricans who chastise the non-Spanish speaking Puerto Ricans, I say, "You gotta stop. You're perpetuating a lot of negative shit that we shouldn't be doing. I mean, we have enough against us. They were never taught, so why don't you ask their parents about that, instead of judging them?"

Q: You have a section in your documentary on the Young Lords, who are really a part of New York history, and the socio-political history of the 60's that has often been overlooked. Do you have affection for them?
RP: I always had an affection because I remember my cousin Titi, God rest her soul. I remember the day when I was about five years old, when I was out with my aunt, right next to her, and she came barreling into the house one day. "Mami, mami, oh my God, you should have seen these Puerto Ricans. They're walking in the street, and they had these berets, and everything. And now they're on the TV on the news tonight. I told you! I told you!"
I remember that throughout the '70's, her dressing like a Young Lord. It was so funny. She had the beret, and the double-breasted, three-quarter leather jacket. And she thought she was so cute, and she was--I have to give it to her. And that's why I had great affection. She was always so fascinated by them, and I was fascinated by her. So I always remember that.

Q: How long did it take to edit your movie?
RP: Initially it took only two weeks to do a rough cut. I give the credit to Moxie Firecracker. They have a mini-editing bay in their offices, so while we were shooting we were downloading and cutting and snipping. It helped that I had such a concise outline already. So we knew what we were doing.
The parade is what changed the most in the documentary, because I thought there was too much of it in the initial cut. I said, "The parade is a symbol of all that we endured, but the movie's not about the parade." And then, after we handed in our final cut, I still wasn't happy with the positioning of the story of the parade and I had one day to re-edit. That's when I made the decision to bookend the documentary with the parade. So editing took a total of maybe three weeks.

Q: The parade is still important in your film because it shows the celebration of Puerto Rican pride.
RP: An ex-boyfriend of mine called me the other day. He hates that I'm saying this story. I say, "Would you shut up. I'm not saying your name at least." He called me up and said, "I hear you're doing the Puerto Rican Day Parade . I hear your people all the way over here in Brooklyn, all the way across the river. Y'all are so damn loud. What the hell are y'all so damn loud about? And I said, "Because we're proud."
He goes, "What the hell you guys got to be proud about? Ha, ha, ha."
I hung up on him. He's still my friend. You know, I can't blame him that he's stupid. I mean, he's cute, but he's not the brightest color in the rainbow.


Q: How did you get Jimmy Smits involved as your narrator?
RP: I was friends with Jimmy prior to the film. Actually, I met him years ago at a Puerto Rican Day Parade in New York, when he was the Grand Marshall and we've stayed friends ever since. We became closer when I started doing theater. We're both from Brooklyn.
I guess we speak the same language and stuff and we're both kind of political activists to some degree. Jimmy is really, really smart in regards to Puerto Rican history, so I knew that there would be no need for a lot of explaining. I knew he would totally get it. He said yes right away, so that was pretty amazing.Q: Now that your film's made, do you feel an obligation to go out and talk to people and make presentations?
RP: I was asked by Harvard and Northwestern to come speak in regards to this movie. I'm happy to speak, but I don't feel like its my obligation. I felt a burning responsibility to make this documentary, but beyond that, whatever happens happens. I feel like I did this, and there's so many other people that can continue the discussion besides myself. There are other people who could do justice to what they're asking me to talk about.

Q: In your film you are critical of how the United States has treated Puerto Rico historically, but it's still obvious in the movie that you're proud to be American.
RP: People are always asking me, "Are you going to retire to Puerto Rico?" I say I would love to retire to upstate New York. I love the United States and wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But my love for the United States doesn't always mean I like what it does.
I don't like the current administration, you know what I mean, but I still love our government system. I don't like a lot of the things that have been done to Puerto Rico, but I still love America. A lot of people are surprised that I am so patriotic. But what did bother me was that it should have been bigger news when the government ran out of money in Puerto Rico.
They'd say on television, "The government in Puerto Rico shut down. Our next story is…" Are you kidding? I remember when I first heard that, because my brother Tito actually called me a week before it shut down. He says, "You know the government's running out of money."
I said "what?" He goes, "They're laying off workers left and right." I said, "But its not on the news." He said, "You see how they do us." I was like, "Get outta here. This government is not going to run out of money. We're the United States of America." He goes, "We ain't."
And then it happened, and I was really angry that the news coverage wasn't more extensive. It really pissed me off, you know? It wasn't right. The Catholic Church had to step in to save the day. That's pathetic. We're spending so much money to liberate Iraq, and we can't take care of our own territory. What the hell's going on?
It's also insane that Puerto Ricans can't vote for United States president. If you're a state, you have the right to vote for the president. But we are a commonwealth, which is a U.S. territory, voluntarily, and the issue of autonomy is so great right now, especially with the collapse of the government.
In regard to whether I want statehood versus independence versus "as is" versus none of the above, I always feel that it's not my opinion because I don't live there and I don't pay the taxes. It's their problem and their issue.
Wen you go to Puerto Rico, it is a different situation. The poverty level is different, the pay level is different, everything is different down there, and they have to live under those conditions, so they should be the ones responsible for the decision of their status. But the issue of not being allowed to vote for president always has bothered me, because if you pay taxes and you can be drafted, and you are willing as a patriotic American to fight for your country and die for your country, then God-dang-it, at least be allowed to vote for President.
Puerto Ricans have fought in all of the wars, which isn't told in history. So in "Saving Private Ryan," where were the Puerto Ricans? You know, more than half of the men on the island fought in WW2. Puerto Ricans also fought in WW1. You never see that in the movies. "Gone With the Wind" drives me crazy, because Puerto Ricans were all over the South. Where do you think yams came from? Seriously, they did. And it was like, "Where the hell are the Puerto Ricans?"  To me it's infuriating, because my father and my uncle served in WWII and the Korean war and my uncle enlisted in Vietnam, because they love America that much. But they can't vote for president.
I still want to do the female-sterilization story. I also want to do films that have nothing to do with Puerto Rico. Like I said, I love this industry. It's a blessing. I love acting. I love directing. I love producing. I also love being on the stage. I want to take full advantage of all those areas as much as possible.                                                                                                                                                  Q: Are you going to do another play soon?
RP: Oh, I'm hoping, I'm talking, I'm talking. It's Broadway, but I don't want to jinx it. Let's all keep our fingers crossed. I can't wait. And it's weird. Every time summer comes around, and the Tony's come around, I get that feeling "I wanna go back. I wanna go back" It's really a strong feeling in me.                    Q: Do you have other social issues that you're passionate about, that are in your mind as of late?
RP: Well, I have my AIDS activism. We protested in front of the UN yesterday. Got minimal news coverage, which is sad. Also, I still fight for children's rights and children's education. I have my own charity called The Working Playground. I'm on the Board. I truly believe opportunity separates an underprivileged child from a privileged child. And so I always champion that, as well.Q: Finally, why are you so proud to be Puerto Rican?
RP: I think the documentary speaks for itself. 'Cause that's why I made it. To answer that question. Hopefully, people who see it will be moved and inspired.

Rosie Perez

Is The World Before Her?

Playing in Film Festivals

Is The World Before Her?

(from brinkzine.com 5/23/12)
Nisha Pahuja and Derek Rogers
Ever since I saw Nisha Pahuja's endlessly enlightening The World Before Her a few days before it was selected Best Documentary at the recent Tribeca Film Festival, I have thought about it. I wonder what has happened to her two young, fascinating subjects since the acclaimed Canadian director turned off her cameras. I still care about Ruhi Singh, the epitome of the "modern" Indian woman who competes in the 2010 Miss India contest, and Prachi Trivedi (with finger raised), the angry, brilliant quasifeminist, whose potential for being a proponent for women's rights is being squashed, paradoxically, by the Hindu fundamentalism to which she devotes her life. From a place of ignorance, I also try to fathom the changing India and all its complexities. After the movie, which was produced by Pahuja and Cornelia Principe and executive produced by Ed Barreveld, was voted Best Canadian Feature at Hot Docs, Pahuja herself was mystified about why her film about these two young women in a far-way world "was striking a chord with people here." Here's a possible reason. On the surface it is only about two young non-celebrity women across the world who we'd never know of if not for the movie. It seems to be only about them and, as an extension, women in modern and not-so modern India. But my guess is that it is really about zillions of women all around the world and their similar issues, primarily their desire for freedom. Going further, it is about how India, their country and Pahuja's second country, relates to all of us, particularly as the most populated democracy in the world becomes more Westernized.
In the film's production notes, Pahuja (who won Gemini Awards for Bollywood Bound and the series Diamond Road) states: "I have been going to India now for nearly 15 years and the more time I spend there, the more I realize what India does best is teach. It teaches one to see that assumptions are never safe and nothing is simple. Sabira Merchant, one of the pageant voices in the film, says, 'There are two Indias.' I would say there are many Indias and they are doing battle with each other now, just as they always have been. The battle I chose to focus on is the battle between tradition and 'modernity,' fundamentalism and capitalism, and how it plays out on the bodies of women. In some ways what hangs in the balance is not just the future of women in this country but the very future of the country itself--for how can democracy flourish in a place so obsessed with sons it aborts 750,000 girls every year? Distressing. But I remind myself that profound change can only happen slowly and it is futile to hate or judge. Time is not the same the world over....India is at a very interesting crossroads and more and more, women are demanding to be heard. Sadly, just as they are staking their claim in this new country, so the violence and oppression against them continues to mount. As history has shown repeatedly, however, freedom has to be fought for and so, women are fighting." Near the end of the TFF, I did the following interview with the extremely personable and engaging Nisha Pahuja over breakfast. That night, I was delighted that her film won the festival's top documentary prize.
Danny Peary: I read that you live in Toronto. Are you known in the documentary community there?
Nisha Pahuja: Yes, Im part of the community. I live in Toronto but am there only about half the time. I go back the forth between Toronto and Bombay.
DP: Have you liked being at the Tribeca Film Festival?
NP: It's fantastic. I love being here, particularly since the Tribeca Film Institute helped the film financially. Gucci was partnered with it to support three films with women-centered issues, and ours was one. They actually approached us. In November 2009, we were invited to pitch the film at IDFA, the International Documentary Film Festival Amsterdam. Ryan Harrington, who is with the Institute, saw the pitch and invited us to submit the film.
DP: The pitch must have been much different from the final film.
NP: Yes, actually. The pitch was that we were going to follow girls through the Miss India pageant. The Durga Vahini fundamentalist camp that is in the film wasnt part of it.
DP: Is Durga Vahini known all over India?
NP: Durga is an Indian warrior goddess and Durga Vahini means essentially an Army of Durga. Its camps take place all over India and there are about three hundred girls who attend camp every year. Everyone knows about the male right-wing Hindu fundamentalist groups but very few know about the Durga Vahini. I found out from Prachi.
DP: So originally you had no thought of having a parallel story about a girl in the Hindu fundamentalist camp? NP: No, but the pitch did include the fundamentalists. We always had that angle as part of the film.
DP: Was "the angle" that Hindu fundamentalists are against the pageant?
NP: Yes. The fundamentalists were preparing to protest the pageant and we were going to follow that. They don't protest annually, just every few years, and it turned out that they didn't protest in 2010. So I looked elsewhere. I knew I had access to the beauty pageant in which Ruhi would be a contestant, but since I hadn't gained access yet to the camp, it wasn't part of my pitch. However, I had met Prachi.
Prachi Trivedi
DP: How did you meet her?
NP: Basically through the editor of a right-wing newspaper, whom I met through one of the bigwigs in the fundamentalist movement. I told him I wanted to talk to people on the ground, real foot soldiers who engaged in acts of violence and were willing to die for the cause. He introduced me to a number of young people. Prachi stood out.
DP: Where do Prachi and Ruhi live?
NP: Prachi lives in Aurangabad, which is where her camp also took place, though camps happen across India. Ruhi is from Jaipur, though I believe now she is living in Bombay.
DP: Among the minor characters in the beauty pageant scenes is Pooja Chopra, whose brave mother took her and left her husband, who wanted to kill their female baby. Your film basically sets up a parallel between Prachi and Ruhi, so was Pooja also part of your original concept? And where does her story come in thematically?
NP: I met Pooja in 2009 during a research trip. It was then that she told me about nearly being killed as a newborn. After she won the 2009 Miss India pageant I knew I had to follow her for a bit and have her as a minor character. The idea at that point was that I would focus on the 2010 pageant and we would meet Pooja organically through that storyline--often the winners of earlier pageants come in and meet the present batch of girls. So we would introduce her that way and then her trajectory would be: former winner who is on her way to becoming well known gives up her crown in 2010. We shot all that but we weren't able to raise the money to shoot the 2010 training camp and pageant so we weren't sure if we were going to be able to make Pooja work in the film. It was only after Prachi told me about being grateful that her father hadn't killed her at birth that I knew we had to get Pooja into the film, too, because thematically that is a moment when both worlds come together and in such a powerful way.
DP: For me the editing process, going back and forth between the two stories, would have been the most difficult part of making this film.
NP: It was. I work with a brilliant editor named Dave Kazala. It took months for us to look through and process all the footage. Then the film took shape in the editing room. We knew we wanted to parallel the two worlds but we structured the film so that there would be an intersection of the worlds. We knew a direct collision wasn't going to happen because there wasn't going to be a protest by fundamentalists of the pageant. So we couldn't build toward that physical collision. Instead we built toward an ideological collision of the two belief systems. That's how we structured the film. We decided that each time we went to one of the worlds, we would learn something else; and that the film would progressively grow darker and darker.
DP: You had a woman from each of those worlds in your film, which creates a pretty easy parallel, but did you in reality think they had parallel lives and dealt with some of the same issues?
NP: Without a doubt. They live in the same country, they share the space. The reality of India is the reality of India and they just happen to be living in these two parallel universes. The intersections are very clear. They're struggling with the same things as women. There's one scene I deeply regret I couldn't include. I am chatting with one of the girls in the fundamentalist camp and I ask her what she wants to be when she grows up. She answers, "An aeronautical engineer." I was blown away and ask her if she'll be able to do it, and she says, "Probably not because my parents want me to get married. I don't want to get married, I want to be an aeronautical engineer." I asked her why she didn't want to get married and she said beautifully in Hindi, "Because I want to carve my own identity in this world, I want to live my dreams. And I don't want to marry a man and be known because of him--I want him to be known because of me." I wish I could have kept it in because it makes you realize that all the women in this country just want the same thing, which is freedom. But all these things are being imposed on them.
DP: Prachi is Hindu, but what is Ruhi?
NP: Ruhi is Hindu, too. In fact about 80% of the people in India are Hindu, and certainly the girls in the pageant were. It's safe to assume that the majority of the girls in the pageant are religious--most people in India have a belief in God or a higher power and are religious---however, most are not fundamentalists.
DP: At the beginning of the film, the pageant is presented almost like a feminist, political alternative, an opportunity for women to achieve economic equality with men, but as we watch it unfold, we see that something is off.
NP: It was deliberate that we portrayed the pageant as being so beneficial to women at the beginning, but then we kind of destructed it. In both camps actually, we start off lightly and simply introduce the world. Each world appears to be one thing and then it becomes darker.
DP: There is a parallel drawn immediately when you introduce a beauty camp and a fundamentalist camp. I'd say there is an indoctrination process in both, but at least the contestants can leave after the pageant is over and not be under anyone's influence.
NP: Yeah, but even the pageant girls are indoctrinated in some sense. They're taught diction, they're taught how to speak in a certain way, they're taught how to walk in a certain way. Once the three winners are selected, they will actually do training with knives and forks. They'll learn etiquette and how to eat properly. They'll be polished for when they go on to international pageants. They do change through an indoctrination process, physically and in their thinking. There is also a change in the way they look at themselves and in their world view--they become more Westernized. A lot of these girls come from small towns and their families may be more liberal than Prachi's family, but they still come from relatively conservative environments.
DP: The contestants in the pageant initially seem to be independent thinkers, but then we see them follow all orders from pageant officials and almost totally conform. The one thing people reacted to at my screening was when during the middle of the pageant some of the contestants get Botox treatments because that's what the pageant doctor suggested. Were you surprised to hear people gasp?
NP: Yes! I wasnt sure if people were reacting because it was young women undergoing this treatment or because there was a bit of coercion. The women could have turned it down.
DP: It seems like there is a step-by-step process for the contestants and that one step is Botox. It's like in The Wizard of Oz when Dorothy gets the Hollywood treatment before she's allowed to meet the Wizard.
NP: Exactly. There was actually a girl who refused the Botox treatment, but most of them go through with it. They do it because the doctor comes on the second or third day of training and does a facial assessment and body assessment of each girl. He tells them what's perfect and imperfect,what they need, and where they're going to inject the Botox. It's incredible.
DP: For me there were a few scenes where they all look alike. It's not that they're Indian. I'll watch a beauty pageant of contestants from the Midwest and they all the look the same, too. I can see there are several contestants in the Miss India contest, like Ruhi and Ankita, who dont look at all alike really but when they're all together and made up and dressed similarly, they do all look alike.
NP: It's funny when Ruhi's parents are going, "Which one is she?" They can't tell them apart.
DP: Ankita was one of the three winners. I won't say how Ruhi did, but I thought she was the prettiest contestant.
NP: I'll tell her you said that. She'll be so happy. Shes lovely, isn't she? She has a very unconventional beauty.

 Ruhi Singh
DP: Are the losers totally disappointed or is it a positive experience?
NP: It's fantastic. Even if you don't win, you are given incredible visibility. That pageant is watched nearly a billion people around the world. There are a lot of people in the beauty and fashion industry and the film industry who watch the pageant to look at the women. Once you've had that kind of training from people who are the top of their fields, photographers and fashion designers all want to work with you. Bollywood is the peak, the goal of all the contestants.

DP: Ruhi has the beauty to do it.
NP: It's interesting you'd think that because in India she wouldnt be considered beautiful at all. She has a very unconventional thing going on and has an amazing personality so she's reality show material. She'd be seen as someone who would be great on TV. We shot the selection process when they had 120 girls and narrowed that down to 20. Some of the girls who were turned down knocked your socks off. I couldn't believe it. But they were too dark or weren't tall enough. Ruhi was told that her nose was too big. So she doesn't have a feminine enough nose to make it in Bollywood.
DP: You say that all the losers have a lot of options but isn't their confidence about their looks kind of destroyed? Especially since the doctor pointed out their flaws.
NP: Oh, yeah, it does affect them. It's devastating when they lose. Even when they're competing it's difficult for them because although there is a real camaraderie among the girls, they are always competing against and comparing themselves to each other. There was one girl named Shweta who was very smart and was constantly questioning what was going on. She refused the Botox, thinking, It's ridiculous, I'm twenty, I'm here because people think I'm beautiful, I don't need this. Her choices didnt affect her chances of winning. She was beautiful and smart. The judges have their own criteria. When you go into that environment you can pretty much tell who is going to win. I've predicted the winner every year from the first year to the year I shot this film.
DP: I won't give away who won the pageant but I thought she won because she told the judges in the question and answer part of the competition that young girls can set an example for mothers who didn't have opportunities. Was that the perfect answer?
NP: It was a great answer because it was delivered with real spontaneity. It seemed to come from her heart. She was very articulate.
DP: You show Prachi watching the pageant with her mother when the winner says that.
NP: I believe that both she and her mother would think about what was said. Prachi is a very interesting woman. In some ways she is a real feminist. Her mum clearly is a little afraid of her husband, Prachi's father, so I wonder if that statement moved her.
Graduation ceremony at Durga Vahini camp

 DP: Everybody responds to her so it's a huge shame that she has the wrong outlet for her thinking. She's being misdirected.
NP: Absolutely. I told her, "You're fighting for something that's oppressing you."
DP: Part of her seems to know that. She even says it in the movie.
NP: Yes, it was a heavy conversation. I thought it was a deeply sad moment for her. It was tough.
DP: She's fighting something or trying to break out of something, but she can't do it because her restrictive, fundamentalist father is ready to marry her off. If she went off to college, would that change her life?
NP: She is in college, though we didnt get into it. She's twenty-six and lives at home but she attends a local government-run law school near her house. She is around these other young people and it definitely has affected her level of confidence.
DP: I hope she's also affected by her classmates divergent views.
NP: I'd like to think that but every time I speak to her and ask her about her beliefs, it's clear that she hasn't changed and she's still working for the movement. So college doesn't seem to have impacted her belief system. I'm surprised. She's an incredible woman and I feel that if she'd been born in a different time and place or had a less complicated relationship with her dad she could channel her energy--which is so huge --into something positive and amazing.
DP: How did you feel about her father, who, too, is stuck in a culture?
NP: To be honest, I grew to really like him. I liked him because he has integrity and is a man of his word. I know that what he believes in is totally misguided and destructive and that he does have an ego, but he really is motivated by something bigger than himself. He has a particular vision and a love for India and he works tirelessly for what he feels is the betterment of his country. Some of the things he laments I can understand--like the Westernization of India. It's important to note that the fundamentalists aren't opposed to modernization--they want infrastructure, paved roads, better education, technology--but they reject the materialism and influence of Western culture that many in the middle class there are equating with modernity. I also empathize with Prachi's dad because as you say, he too is a product of this culture and his country's history.
DP: I was surprised that he admitted he beats Prachi.
NP: I already knew that from Prachi so I wasn't surprised, but that he admitted to me on camera that he beats her was extraordinary. I felt it spoke to the fact that he really trusted me. I spent so much time with him and her that things in their relationship didn't really surprise me, except for his heating up the iron bar to burn her foot. That was shocking, as was what she said, that he had a right to do it because he had let her live when she was born. It's so sad. Those moments were very difficult for me. With Prachi, at least I could be honest and react, which I did. As a filmmaker you have to let people say their peace, and then you respond.
DP: Prachi's father is conservative in that he states she won't be a woman until she is married and has a baby, but he doesn't distinguish between a male baby and a female baby and that is more progressive than are many fathers in India.
NP: I asked him if he wanted a son. Of course, he wanted a son, which is why he raised Prachi as a boy, but he told me that he and his wife decided that they were going to have only one child and that they were going to accept whatever gender that child was. They didn't keep trying until they had a son.
DP: Talk about your choice of title. I'm sure it has more than one meaning, perhaps that there is a modern India but there is a misconception that everything is modern and nothing is anti-modern. There's a bit of irony when you see the title and realize Prachi's future is limited. I think your title might have a question mark after it, but nobody wants a question mark.
NP: The title is many things. Her in the title refers to the women of course, but also to India. It's also the World Before India. Before has the common meaning--"here it is laid out for you"--and it also refers to the past, the world that existed before.
DP: In regard to your first meaning of Before, are you talking about opportunities the women have--which is what I think your film is about?
NP: Sure. The "world as it's laid out" for you is opportunities in the future. It's also that these opportunities are yours for the taking. The title came to me when I was writing the proposal and thought of an image. This whole beauty pageant industry came into prominence in 1994 when two Indian women won the Miss World and Miss Universe pageants. This launched pageantdom in India. Sushmita Sen, who was Miss India and then Miss Universe that year, was the one who really started it all. There is an image of her back then that I found on the internet. She was nineteen and stunning and just full of optimism. It's an amazing photograph of hope and life before this ingenue. The world was at her feet and that's where my title came from. And then the title took on other meanings, too.
DP: Do you think of your film as optimistic or cautionary or just a glimpse at what's going on with women in India today?
NP: I think it's a glimpse of what's going on. Ninety minutes can never be the whole picture, right? There are always so many other complexities and viewpoints. But I decided to focus very deliberately on these two choices, between modernity--so-called "modernity" actually--and tradition. Because they are fundamental choices. It really looks at how women are used to put forth two different ideas of India.
DP: What do you mean by "used?"
NP: Women have always been used to promote national identify.
DP: In the film's production notes, you questioned whether the girls in the pageant, who think they have all kinds of freedoms, may be "simply trading one set of shackles for another." You ask, "When so much goes into making us who and what we are, do we not have to question the very notion of freedom itself?" Are you saying that to have freedom without having a a social conscience or an understanding of the politics in the world is useless and dangerous?
NP: That makes sense. I looked at those women in my film and felt they were trapped. Both sets of women. I looked at Prachi's father and felt the same thing, because patriarchy is also a construct and all constructs define us and give us parameters. Rules are outlined for men and women. Men are victimized by being defined, although not to the same degree as women and they are the ones in power. Not all of them want to be in that position. That is another reason I didn't dislike Prachi's father. I felt he was a product of something--culture, history, the forces of the present day--that is so much bigger than him. I started to think how all of us are defined, no matter where we are, by things bigger than ourselves, that we can't control and sometimes can't see and recognize. So how do we define freedom? Are the women in the pageant freer than the fundamentalists or is it a different kind of imprisonment?
DP: I'm surprised that Prachi was allowed to go to college by her father. I wondered if she even had a cell phone.
NP: Oh, yeah. She's connected to the world; she's on Facebook, the whole bit.
DP: What would it be like if she and Ruhi were roommates?
NP (laughing): I think Ruhi would give her a makeover. That's how they'd start! Prachi would teach Ruhi how to defend herself. When I spent time with Prachi while doing research, I was amazed by the way she intimidated men. They'd run away, literally. There was once a group of men on the street and they all ran away. She's an imposing figure. She's about 5'7" and is stocky and powerful, with a booming voice. She scares people. She's gotten into so many fights, including knife fights at Hindu festivals. She carries a knife with her.
DP: Would Prachi try to indoctrinate a roommate?
NP: Oh, yeah. She tried to indoctrinate me! Constantly. One of her conditions for my shooing in the camp was that I had to sit through the lectures. But they were in Marathi and I don't speak it. So I wasn't brainwashed.
DP: Did you two hug?
NP: Oh, yeah, of course! Constantly! I love her. I think what she saw me as kind of an older sister or maternal figure. She didn't ask me about the world but I was a confidant. There were lots of things she told me both on and off camera that I didn't use because I didn't want to expose her.
DP: Her world is so different than yours so I wonder if you said something untrue to her if she'd see through you or be naive enough to accept it. Because there is such falseness going on in her world.
NP: You're right. But she's very smart and gets it. She has real integrity. What I found with the fundamentalists is that, as far out there as they are, the ones that I dealt with had an ethos, and that ethos gave them integrity.
DP: In the film's production notes, you wrote about how filming the fundamentalists turned out to be easier than filming the pageant world because every time you wanted to film a contestant she'd be whisked away for some reason. You wrote: "So I lost hair and ate."
NP: It was constant, and I was going, "I'm not going to have a film." The film I sold was that I was going to follow girls through the process and that meant I'd have access to them. I wasn't getting access so we'd just shoot whenever we could. It was really flying by the seat of our pants. We were lucky in that the girls were just so smart. And Ruhi was a trooper. She had no issues about being filmed. She loved being on camera and always wanted to do it. She was so open and wore her heart on her sleeve.
2010 Miss India pageant

DP: It was easy to relate to her parents. They appear to be lower middle-class and they figured she knew more about what she was doing, so didn't put restrictions on her.
NP: They totally let her go. Her parents are actually well off but it doesn't come across because they live in such a ramshackle home. That's a whole other story. But they aren't poor. Ruhi's mum comes from a military background. Her father and granddad were in the military. When you're in the military in a place like India, you automatically have a much more open world view and you're more liberal. So she was raised in a liberal household and she is married to a lovely man and they support and love their daughter and let her do what she needs to do. They're really proud of her and want her to succeed. And Ruhi wants to make them proud. DP: What if you put the two fathers together?
NP (laughing): I actually think they'd get along really well. They'd have tea and complain about their daughters and how much money they cost them.
DP: Would Prachi's father ask him if he knew any eligible young guys?
NP: Probably not! I think Ruhi's dad is too liberal for him to ask that of him.
DP: Prachi's 26, so is it hard to marry her off?
NP: In some circles it would be. Her family is getting nervous but I don't think they'll freak until she hits twenty-eight or thirty.

Prachi teaching at camp
DP: She says she doesn't want to have kids. Do you think that's true?
NP: Yes. She doesn't want to get married or have children. She wants the freedom of a man.
DP: Has Prachi seen the film yet?
NP: No. I will be showing the film to her and others when I soon return to India. Hopefully they will still want to talk to me!
DP: Showing the film to Prachi should be an experience. She'll either love being a movie star or become a film critic and question what you chose to leave out of her! Good luck!
NP: I imagine Prachi is going to smoke a big fat cigar and tell me exactly what I did wrong.
DP: I'm sure you hope the best for both girls, but what do you see ahead for them?
NP: I'm a lot more optimistic about Ruhi. I think her road will be much more straightforward. She has very supportive parents who will back her and love her. I think we'll see her on television. Prachi will have a tough time, a very challenging life. But I think she'll get through it. I really do.